Atlantis Online

Maps, Explorers & Adventurers => Maps, Cartographers & Cartography => Topic started by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:05:43 pm



Title: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:05:43 pm
ANCIENT MAPS

Introduction


The subject of ancient maps belongs to the category of “unusual knowledge” in the sense that some of these maps display knowledge about things that are not compatible with their age. From the standpoint of analysis, it is one of the easiest to deal with, because most or all of the work has already been done by Charles Hapgood, and published in his book Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings. His work came to the attention of a more general public by Erich von Däniken’s Chariots of the Gods, which was a pity, because it came associated with all of the other material of Von Däniken, and was more or less ignored and/or rejected on the basis of this other material.

The latter violation of the rules of good science is considerably worse than the ones Von Däniken made. Von Däniken was just overly enthusiastic in his interpretation of data, but he did not destroy any data. The latter is effectively what his critics did do, by tarnishing Von Däniken’s data together with his interpretations. Putting Hapgood’s data on the same level as stories about the city plan of Atlantis is a gross violation of the rules of good science, because the data of Hapgood is objective and can be tested by anyone at any given time, and in effect this is quite easy, as will be shown here.

The most famous example of these ancient maps is the one named after the Turkish admiral and cartographer Piri Reis (or Piri Re’is), see left (click on it for an enlargement). Its earliest known time of existence is as late as 1929, while it is dated 1513, but nevertheless its authenticity is not really disputed. On first inspection it looks as inaccurate as one would expect of an ancient map. So there would not have been a cause for alarm when it was discovered, and until the time it was send to America in 1953, where first its hidden accuracy was discovered, and later, when Hapgood was called in, other remarkable features. Hapgood subsequently started a wider investigation of ancient maps in general, which turned up many more with these features


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:08:33 pm
(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/pirireis.jpg)

The map of Piri Reis


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:10:05 pm
Description of Piri Reis

The Piri Reis map seems as distorted as can be expected for an old map. However, if one takes small areas, the map is remarkably accurate within this small area, see e.g. Europe. In the area of South America, it correctly shows the position of capes and rivers. This accuracy is present in most areas of the map. This may be due to the fact that Reis compiled his map from other older and much older ones that were available to him from the Imperial library at Constantinople, at that time a centre of civilization.

The second remarkable thing is the grids overlaying the contours. These grids display latitude (north-south) and longitude (east-west) to a high degree of accuracy (see an analysis). The latitude is not remarkable; it can be measured by the height of the sun above the horizon. Longitude is, because in fact it is only possible to measure this by accurately measuring time. In fact, the first known person to achieve this accuracy was John Harrison in 1716, who made his clocks in response to a competition organized by the British admiralty, after a small fleet of warships was lost when hitting cliffs after a navigational error in longitude (by the way, Harrison got a similar treatment as Hapgood, in his case because he was of lowly social class, which is another fine way to judge someone’s work).

The third remarkable thing is that what was initially seen as an arbitrary distortion of the large scale features, in fact turned out to be explainable by changing ones view of the earth. The earth is a globe, so all maps, being flat, are distorted, and the only thing to do is to choose ones kind of distortion, which is called a mathematical projection. The Piri Reis map is a projection that looks like a view from a fixed point, like taking a globe and holding it for your eyes, see here. In order to make such a map, one could use the method just mentioned, or have another accurate map, and do mathematical calculations to transform it to this view. However, in this source map too the knowledge of the earth being a globe has to be present, and has to know spherical trigonometry.

The fourth remarkable thing is that the map shows the Antarctic. If the knowledge compiled by the map comes from sailors, these sailors must have navigated throughout the northern part of the Antarctic regularly, in order to gather the data shown on the map.

The fifth remarkable thing is that the contours of the Antarctic it shows are its land contours as it presently lies under a thick layer of ice. This fact came to the fore after Hapgood had asked the military about these features of the map, see the response he got here (to come).




Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:13:39 pm
Other maps

After having studied the Piri Reis map, Hapgood went on a systematic search through the libraries to see if there were other examples. He turned up a number that show similar longitudinal knowledge (the so-called portolani), and others that show the Antarctic in all kinds of detail, see the gallery below and click on the thumbnails. Some other maps are included to show that they got not better in time, possibly even worse, giving rise to the suggestion that the good ones stem from an accurate original, that got copied and copied, and thereby got worse.

     
(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/portolano.gif)

A portolano of the Mediterranean.

(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/dulcert_md.jpg)

One of the most famous portolani, the Dulcert, 1339.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:16:28 pm
(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/hamedmap.gif)

A map by Hadji Ahmed, 1550. Probably also a map compiled from different sources, since the European and African side is much less accurate than the American side. Look at the nearly correct orientations and proportions of such features as Florida, the Caribbean Islands, the Californian peninsula, etc. Other remarkable features are a connection between Siberia and Alaska, and the presence a southern continent. The latter looks like the shape one gets from Mercator projections of the existing globe, which have greatly oversized representations of the North and South Pole regions. Note that the top part of the map is a quite successfull spherical projection. The existence of a land bridge with Siberia is remarkable, because once there was one, though it was some 20,000 to 30,000 years ago.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:37:20 pm
(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/maps2.jpg)

Above a representation of the map of Ptolemy, below a corresponding one from Piri Reis. 
 


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:40:22 pm
(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/tolomeo.gif)

A map by Ptolemy, around 200 A.D., supposedly the source of all knowledge on geography at least into the Middle Ages.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:41:53 pm
(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/med_landmap.jpg)

A map of Ptolemy.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:43:24 pm
(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/bauchemap.jpg)

Map of Antarctica by Philippe Bauche, 1737, discovered by Hapgood in the Library of Congress in 1960. Other maps of the time have a void at the place of Antarctica, becuase it had not yet been discovered. Note that it shows Antarctica as composed out of two parts, just like it is under the ice cap.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:46:37 pm
(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/Oronteus_large_550.jpg)

The map of Antarctica by Oronteus Fineaus, 1531, discovered by Hapgood in the Library of Congress in 1960. Probably the map is intended to be centred on the South Pole. The fact that the map is centred on the Antarctic shows the high importance attached to the Antarctic.

(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/fineaus_md.jpg)

Left a modern map, right the one by Oronteus, showing its remarkably accuracy.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on February 20, 2007, 10:48:16 pm
(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/calopodio.gif)

Map by Giorgio Calopodio, 1537, centred on what is probably assumed by Calopodio to be the South Pole. The choice again indicates the high importance attributed to the Antarctic.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Danaus on February 21, 2007, 09:15:33 am
Great roman maps:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/Images/Maps/Periods/Roman/Places/Europe/
http://www.snible.org/greek/

Egypt Maps:
http://www.narmer.pl/map/mapa_en.htm
http://www.touregypt.net/mapsa.htm
****************

Ptolemy:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/

Skylax:
http://www.le.ac.uk/ar/gjs/skylax_for_www_02214.pdf

Strabo:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/

pliny the elder:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Plin.+Nat.+toc

Arrian's Periplus of the black sea (Latin):
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0vofWSlQop7JGiOZSWolIvC&id=Gn3wP2QKzTgC&pg=PP18&lpg=PP18&dq=periplus+ponti+euxini+date:1-1921

Here is the Periplus of the Red Sea:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/periplus.html


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Boreas on February 23, 2007, 12:15:50 am
Great topic - nice contributions. Here's one of the first maps of the North Atlantic, from a link with many others...

(http://www.civilization.ca/hist/frobisher/images/frbef01b.jpg)

www.civilization.ca/hist/frobisher/frsub03e.html



Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on March 01, 2007, 02:06:35 am
Nice links, Boreas & Danaus.

The Nile Valley:

(http://www.narmer.pl/map/ima/m6en.gif)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on March 01, 2007, 02:07:48 am
West Bank at Luxor:

(http://www.touregypt.net/Map19.gif)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on March 01, 2007, 02:08:50 am
Ancient Greece:

(http://www.snible.org/greek/map2g.jpg)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on March 01, 2007, 02:09:54 am
Iberia:

(http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/Images/Maps/Periods/Roman/Places/Europe/Iberia/1*.jpg)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on March 01, 2007, 02:11:51 am
(http://www.civilization.ca/hist/frobisher/images/frbef02b.jpg)

1595 world map by geographer Gerard Mercator
 
Courtesy of the National Archives of Canada ( NMC 016097 )


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on March 01, 2007, 02:13:17 am
(http://www.narmer.pl/map/ima/m1en.gif)

Mouth of the Nile


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on March 01, 2007, 03:22:53 am
Those are beautiful maps.  Fabulous art work for each time period.
On my search for "truth and enlightenment" I delved into a lot of things, and below is a "paste" of an entry I made in another forum regarding how the ancients could know longitude.

Before a pyramid can be built, the site must be surveyed. When one is at sea, one must know where they are. To do that, one must be able to find latitude & longitude. Historically, it seems most ancient peoples studied the stars in detail, including the Egyptians to align their pyramids, and the seafaring Phoenicians looked to the stars for a guidance system.

The ancients needed an instrument that could:
1) tell time
2)find latitude & longitude
3)measure the angle of the stars
4)predict the solstices and equinoxes
5)measure the precession of the quinoxes
6)find the ecliptic pole
7)find the North and South Poles
8)be used to make maps and charts
9)be used to design pyramids and henges

The instrument of the Ancient Wise Ones, who invented Astrology & Astronomy and functioned in the above mentioned capacities, was the CELTIC CROSS.

The Celtic Cross, which is an ancient & sacred symbol, appears to be a representation of an ancient instrument that was used by our ancestors as far back as Neolithic times. The cross is formed of an upright with cross bars set at 90 degrees to each other. In the center is a hub and on the hub is hung a wheel, designed to rotate between the crossbars on the hub. The arms are wider on the outer edge, than on the inner. The amazing cross is capable of measuring angles to an accuracy of 3 Arc minutes, showing that the re-discovery of the cross and it's purpose, may be more important than the pyramid, since the pyramid could not exist without the cross.

Remnants of such a cross were discovered by the House of Amon, in the Great Pyramid of Khufu at Giza (Egypt again!) Further relics were still in the shaft, seen clearly in the photos taken by Rudolph Gatenbrink in 1994 with his robot.

By copying and assembling the relics in a logical format, the astounding result was a cross and a plumbline of incredible accuracy.

This artifact is capable of measuring all angles possible and coupled with sufficent astronomical knowledge, it reveals all the mysteries of the Ancients; how they kept time and measured the stars, sun, moon, planets and sailed the oceans of the world. But it goes further than that, exposing the Ancient's fundamental spirituality and understanding of the world, nature and the universe.

Conclusion - the Ancients were clever dudes!
Please go to www.crichtonmiller.com to read about his resurrection of the Celtic Cross and it's purpose.

I really enjoyed the story about how he put together his information.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Artemis on March 03, 2007, 11:58:00 pm
Celtic Cross, like this one?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/Ccross.svg/424px-Ccross.svg.png)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on March 04, 2007, 12:33:33 am
YES! Exactly like that!!


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on March 04, 2007, 01:58:34 am
(http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p66smhp2.jpg)

I haven't done much in the way of posting pictures, so not sure if I've followed the correct procedure.  Guess not!

(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4163/p66smhp2.th.jpg) (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p66smhp2.jpg)

That didn't work either!  Oh well.

I was trying to post a picture of the Antikythera device, which is thought to be like an ancient computer for determining all sorts of things, and supposedly was use on ships.  However, I'm wondering if it was just a "one off", and was being shipped somewhere either as a gift for someone, or to a centre of learning.

Oh - it did work!


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Helios on March 04, 2007, 02:05:38 am
Hello Qoais & welcome to the forum,

To print pictures you have to do this:

Right click on the picture & get the web address
Copy the web address
Paste the web address on your message here and put these tags around it:

(http://web address)

Then, of course, hit reply.

It's really very simple. There is also an icon above the smiley icons that will help you with that, too.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on March 04, 2007, 02:10:37 am
Hi Morrison
Could you please tell me, when the ancients made maps, did they map areas they had actually been, or did they sometimes draw the map with what they knew and guess the rest?  I sort of think they wouldn't waste their time and resources drawing something on precious paper that they didn't know about, but then again, maybe they did.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on March 04, 2007, 02:17:33 am
(http://www.giant.net.au/users/rupert/kythera/pu-sm.jpg)

Do you mean tag it with the "insert image" button?  Rats!  Whatever I did, it didn't work either.
When I right click on the picture, I then clicked on properties, but when I tried to copy the address in the drop down box, I couldn't.   I was trying, by uploading the picture to image shack to download it again to here, but it's just a thumbnail. 


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Helios on March 04, 2007, 02:24:07 am
You have to right click on the image, then click, "select all," and then "copy." The paste the link here with the (http://) tags around it. Keep trying, you'll get the hang of it.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on March 04, 2007, 03:08:01 am
Thanks for trying to help Helios.  I did what you said, and did the "copy" thing, but when I got back here, the "paste" wasn't highlighted, so I couldn't paste it in.  So, I typed in the address of the picture for my post about Zecharia Sitchin and Ancient Flying Machines, but it's frustrating not to be able to do something so simple!


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on March 04, 2007, 09:05:48 pm
Hi Morrison
Could you please tell me, when the ancients made maps, did they map areas they had actually been, or did they sometimes draw the map with what they knew and guess the rest?  I sort of think they wouldn't waste their time and resources drawing something on precious paper that they didn't know about, but then again, maybe they did.

Au contraire, Qoais!

Actually, they did maps from both actual knowledge and from "hearsay" (depending on the era), meaning that they might take folk tales of whatever ancient lands a sailor might say he had been and, lo and behold, it would appear upon a map.  Remember, before the Middle Ages, very few ships (apart from perhaps the Phoenicians and the Romans) had been out in the Atlantic.

Many fabled lands such as the Isle of Demons, the Isle of Brazil and Antillia (the 14th century version of Atlantis) appeared on maps for ages before being struck from them after never beng found.  A good book on this is one called "Phantom Islands of the Atlantic."

I would actually like to see some old Viking maps, I'm sure they had it going on.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Mark of Australia on March 21, 2007, 01:38:34 pm
Check this out !! 

I'm fairly excited about this since I am Australian .They have found an ancient map by the Portuguese that shows the East Coast of Australia and it is from a very early time ,only 30 years after Columbus discovering the Americas!. That is very early to be fishing about on the east coast of Australia.  The strange thing is that I found out about this on an entertainment pop up alongside stories such as 'Keith Urban thrills fans in Sydney' and ' Britney leaves rehab'  :-\ ,...it's because it was an Aussie site i guess. and it would be quite sensational news for us.  This is breaking news people .   It's a pity there is no picture of the map as yet.



Map 'proves' Portuguese found Australia
Wednesday Mar 21 16:53 AEDT
A 16th century maritime map proves Portuguese adventurers, not British or Dutch, were the first Europeans to discover Australia, according to a new book.

The book, Beyond Capricorn, says the map, which accurately marks geographical sites along Australia's east coast in Portuguese, proves Portuguese seafarer Christopher de Mendonca led a fleet of four ships into Botany Bay in 1522 - almost 250 years before Britain's Captain James Cook.

The map is in a Los Angeles library vault.

Australian author Peter Trickett said that when he enlarged the small map he could recognise all the headlands and bays in Botany Bay in Sydney - the site where Cook claimed Australia for Britain in 1770.

 
 
 
"It was even so accurate that I found I could draw in the modern airport runways, to scale in the right place, without any problem at all," Trickett told Reuters.

Trickett said he stumbled across a copy of the map while browsing through a Canberra book shop eight years ago.

He said the shop had a reproduction of the Vallard Atlas, a collection of 15 hand drawn maps completed no later than 1545 in France. The maps represented the known world at the time.

Two of the maps called "Terra Java" had a striking similarity to Australia's east coast except at one point the coastline jutted out at right angles for 1,500 kilometres.

"There was something familiar about them but they were not quite right - that was the puzzle. How did they come to have all these Portuguese place names?," Trickett said.

Trickett believed the cartographers who drew the Vallard maps had wrongly aligned two Portuguese charts they were copying from.

It is commonly accepted that the French cartographers used maps and "portolan" charts acquired illegally from Portugal and Portuguese vessels that had been captured, Trickett said.

"The original portolan maps would have been drawn on animal hide parchments, usually sheep or goat skin, of limited size," he explained.

"For a coastline the length of eastern Australia, some 3,500 kms, they would have been three to four charts."

"The Vallard cartographer has put these individual charts together like a jigsaw puzzle. Without clear compass markings its possible to join the southern chart in two different ways. My theory is it had been wrongly joined."

Using a computer, Trickett rotated the southern part of the Vallard map 90 degrees to produce a map which accurately depicts Australia's east coast.

"They provided stunning proof that Portuguese ships made these daring voyages of discovery in the early 1520s, just a few years after they had sailed north of Australia to reach the Spice Islands - the Moluccas. This was a century before the Dutch and 250 years before Captain Cook," he said.

Trickett believes the original charts were made by Mendonca who set sail from the Portuguese base at Malacca with four ships on a secret mission to discover Marco Polo's "Island of Gold" south of Java.

If Trickett is right, Mendonca's map shows he sailed past Fraser Island off Australia's northeast coast, into Botany Bay in Sydney, and south to Kangaroo Island off southern Australia, before returning to Malacca via New Zealand's north island.

Mendonca's discovery was kept secret to prevent other European powers reaching the new land, said Trickett, who believes his theory is supported by discoveries of 16th century Portuguese artefacts on the Australian and New Zealand coasts.


©AAP 2007

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=255927

http://www.bookworm.com.au/shop/scditem.asp?ProdID=76324


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Mark of Australia on April 15, 2007, 02:39:00 am
Here's a pic of that map finally : East coast of Australia

(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u167/atlantispix/2007_03_21t062508_292x450_us_austra.jpg)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: julia on May 05, 2007, 07:35:06 pm
Dear Morrison:
In Nicolo Zeno `s map what is this Island on west of the iceland??
http://www.civilization.ca/hist/frobisher/frsub03e.html


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: julia on May 05, 2007, 07:42:19 pm
We can see in the Google Earth some island like thing north of the ireland and west of thefaroe islands..Was that an island in 1500 s??


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on May 06, 2007, 12:40:34 am
Julia,

(http://www.civilization.ca/hist/frobisher/images/frbef01b.jpg)

The Zeno map is dated 1558, so I am guessing that the large island would still be Greenland (although it's contours are still quite off). 

Quote
Also in 1558 Nicolo Zeno produced an influential map of the North Atlantic, supposedly based on ocean voyages by members of the family in the 1380s, although we have no other evidence of such travels. It placed most features at too northerly a latitude, causing later cartographic confusion and leading Frobisher to think he had visited the island of "Friesland", when in fact it was Greenland.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: julia on May 08, 2007, 04:33:32 pm
Ni, the one that it says AISLAND or MISLAND or something.It is south of the ISLANDA


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Mark of Australia on May 08, 2007, 10:23:06 pm
In case you didn't know, 'Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings' is where you can find that map and more like it . I never shut up about that book ...,but Forbidden Archaeology is just as good.  :P ok ok I'm going. :P


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on May 09, 2007, 02:53:19 pm
DEAR   MARK,

 ;D  As I was saying earlier The World-or-Atlantic-OCEAN that Plato spoke of was supposedly HORIZONTAL on a Map with NORTH-on-Top !

During the 17-th Century more Maps were drawn with WEST on Top so that the ATLANTIC looked HORIZONTAL TOO

When later in the 18-th Cent. Maps were with NORTH on top again everybody forgot about Plato's HORIZONTAL- OCEAN

My discovery is that this was the Present GULF-of-ADEN  ( See my POST at"Plato's Statistics"

See ? How simple Life can be ???

Hé Mark,  what is keeping, your reply to my Post on: "Plato's Statistics"??

Sincerely :'( "BlueHue"  :'(


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: julia on May 10, 2007, 07:10:24 pm
This was a simple question nobody wanted to answer..Mark, That island Is that fakeor is it a sunken island??
there is an island like sunken land there in the google earth..In the same place(where the todays Rockall is, There is aTwo part of sunken land looks exactly like Atlantis.. :D


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Mark of Australia on May 11, 2007, 01:34:53 am
Well Julia,  .I have not really studied the northern regions.Do you have Hapgood's book Julia?? If not ,I strongly suggest you obtain a copy.That Zeno map is in Hapgood's book. So I expect the map to be authentic.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Mark of Australia on May 11, 2007, 01:48:59 am
DEAR   MARK,


...During the 17-th Century more Maps were drawn with WEST on Top so that the ATLANTIC looked HORIZONTAL TOO...



Hi BlueHue ,

That is very interesting about the maps being drawn with 'WEST on top' during the 17th century. I think I understand you correctly.

What can you tell us about that ?? What is the reason for that practice?

Oh,and if you mentioned it earlier I must have not read it because it was probably in one of your really long posts that I didn't read. ;D

One point at a time is best I think ,it's hard to keep the attention of us fickle Atlantis researchers in a subject known for whacked-out,crazy ideas.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on May 13, 2007, 10:58:37 am
Hi Blue Hue
I'm not sure I even understand yet, what point you're making.
You say:
1. Georgeos created a hoax to get funding for exploration off Portugal. 
2. You say Georgeos has been telling everyone the interpretations have been wrong.

If he created a hoax - that makes him dishonest - so why should we believe him about the interpretations then?

You've said this before, that the Atlantans were part of Egypt.  Plato says the Atlanteans were going to attack Egypt.  Why would they attack themselves?  Plato also says the Atlanteans had control of parts of Europe to Italy and Africa to Libya.  How did this "third" part of Egypt have more control and power, that the capitol of Egypt, that was closer to the Med?  Even if the maps were drawn horizontally, Plato knew in real life, that the sun set in the west.  So did Solon.  They knew their directions.  They didn't write their stories based on a drawing of a map.

What makes you think the earth tipple toppled when you say it did? 


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on May 13, 2007, 03:02:59 pm

                                MR. "BLUE HUE":



PLEASE REFRAIN FROM SENDING LONG E-MAILS OF YOUR SO-CALLED THEORIES TO

INDIVIDUALS WHO WANT     N O T H I N G    TO DO WITH THEM.


IT IS NOT THE FIRST TIME YOU HAVE DONE SO, OR STOMPED INTO A

SECTION THAT HAD     N O T H I N G    TO DO WITH THEM WHILE I WAS

POSTING SOMETHING TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT YOU WERE WRITING:


[ SEE :  PHILOSOPHY >  NEW AGE  >  THE ATLANTEANS ].


THESE ARE THE ACTIONS OF A     T R O L L   ! ! !    AND OF A CHILD THROWING

A TANTRUM..........



I HAVE BOUGHT ALMOST ALL THE BOOKS THAT HAVE BEEN RECOMMENDED BY OUR

MEMBERS.  BECAUSE  OF    Y O U R    D I S R U P T I V E    M E T H O D S , I WOULD

NOT READ THE BOOK YOU  SO VALUE -  somebody called volinovski, or something.....-,

IF SOMEBODY GAVE IT TO ME FOR FREE.  NOR DO I BOTHER READING YOUR CHAOTIC,

CONVOLUTED AND DISJOINTED POSTS.




 


 


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: julia on May 13, 2007, 05:16:27 pm
Dear Bianca;
I know Mr.Bluehue from Atlan.org forum.He is a gentleman and a sensitive human being.(Not rude like some others in the AR forum)
but, Mr Bluehue has a metabolic disease (Phenylketonuria)which makes him "Subtle attention and performance deficits in organization and planning persist in treated patients. These deficits are related to phenylalanine levels and may interfere with academic achievement."so, Plays with his mind as well because it does some effects in the brain.thats why you sould not pay attention where he writes, but pay attention what he writes.because It could be the truth..
I expalin him to you because I know himsince coupleofyears and I know him, he means well, But he cant follow the rules because of his conditiojn.
SO, Lets behave well to this beautiful human being.And be his friends.
With Love and Peace-julia


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on May 13, 2007, 05:58:42 pm



"LET'S BEHAVE WELL", Miss Julia?"  I don't think I have done anything but, with anyone on this
board, or other places.  Maybe you should speak for yourself, I still occasionally visit Atlantis
Rising and you are not the most polite person in the world, nor do you show any RESPECT for
your ELDERS.  Mr. Brig (to you) was a young man int the 1940's, so YOU do the math............
His wife is younger, but at that age it makes little difference.

Besides, what you said to him is not what a mature person would say to anyone, especially a
stranger.  Oh, yes COO COO BANANAS, is not very mature either.  You say you did that because
you have to be blunt in your profession, well, Miss Julia, that kind of stuff is RUDE and CHILDISH.

Brig is probably the only person that is never really "picked on" by any one.  I personally have
never had any problems with him. 

May I ask, since you say you are a doctor (medical?), have YOU, yourself examined this per-
son, Blue Hue?  Or are you just going by what he says?

It seems to me Mr. Blue Hue knows EXACTLY  what he is doing, including dropping hints about
his health - I noticed that, almost from his first post.  He also has an anger problem, maybe you
should help him with it. 

It has nothing to do with his "academic achievement", nor am I attacking his theories, like he
attacks everyone else's.
 

I SIMPLY WANT HIM TO LEAVE ME ALONE.  If you think I am being harsh, so be it!
   

You do whatever you want, as for myself, I'll make my own DIAGNOSIS, thank you. 


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on May 13, 2007, 06:22:48 pm




ACTUALLY, MISS JULIA, THIS IS WHAT I REALLY THINK:






     Re: the Egotistical Atlantis
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2007, 04:43:27 pm » Quote Modify 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You know,   I hate to point out what I am about to say.  I am
sure other members are TOO POLITE  to do so.  But I can do it, because I am one of them:

EUROPEANS  believe that we Americans (I have DUAL citizenship) are a lot
of IGNORAMUS(es?).  Well, to be truthful, the "ugly American" picture is true, to a
certain extent.  But ignorant?  In the literal sense of the word - ILLITERATE - well, we are
just as educated as they are.  The countries in Europe are small.  By population count, one
may find that there is no difference between the two continents, by ratio, in formal learn-
ing or self-education.

Plus, I personally would much rather be considered well-mannered, courteous and
pleasant than a GENIUS, if those do exist in everyday life...........

Then, there are the British who still tend to think of the USA and CANADA as
"THE COLONIES"........
 


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Majeston on May 13, 2007, 06:26:23 pm
Personally,  After a few years at that board,  I came to the conclusion that Brig deserved the honor

of being the biggest idiot there with Smiley running him a very close second.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: julia on May 13, 2007, 06:47:45 pm
Dear Miss Bianca:
I did not pick on Brig .that was ajoke, only lasted a little too long because I couldnot answer in time.I was picked on there.because, I did not believe some hauntings or so, (Actually I really regreted what I said afterwards, but, if you are a person who came from war and witnessed several unpleasant realities an casualities of war like me,(I witnessed the war in Serbia, Bosnia-Hersegovina and Macedonia.) Ans we fled.Anyway, I dont want to explain my life in here, but, my life is too real to worry such things like ghosts..
Suddenly, I reacted.but, I know Brig is a nice man and I talked and apologized I didnt realized he was offended.
I know Bluehue and I know his condition, He doesnt lie, the same mistakes and confusion was In the Atlan.org forum also, then he explained his condition.
that why, my modest advice to you being patient with him.Anyway, of course everyone knows how to behave I dont need to give any advice to youbut I am just explaining his situation.
Salute with love and Peace-julia


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: julia on May 13, 2007, 06:57:37 pm
And Miss Bianca:                                                                                                                                                                                                      I am neither from England nor I think Americans are Rude or"ugly", the Human being is same everywhere no matter where is it.I come from one of the former  East block countries.May be impairment of my english plays a role that I look rude or respectless, which I am not..
but, You people In the Atlantis forums dont make our communication and adaptation to the new land process any easier.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on May 13, 2007, 07:01:21 pm

I disagree with you completely.  Don't blame the Forums, your English is more than good enough.
There are people from other countries on this board and they are a real PLEASURE, even in
disagreement.  The key word is ATTITUDE.

As for a harsh life and war, well my dear, I was born in 1937, in Italy.

How does WorldWarII sound to you?  I don't blame that or other "bad things in life" for the

things I do.  As a matter of fact, it is my experiences in life that make me behave

better to my fellow man. 

But that doesn't stop me from seeing a FAKE when I see one.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: julia on May 13, 2007, 07:45:27 pm
Miss bianca; If you are so prejudicial for me I cant do anything to change your mind.You yourself invited me to this forum.You saw the problems with me and the other people there..You have prejudice about me, it cannot change no matter.
I am a Hungarian woman who was married with an ethnic albanian man and we lived in Macedonia.After the war, we were in Germany and here.I never lied to anybody why shall I lie to you miss Bianca??Anyway,Its ok.I know why are you so prejudicial but, I am not going to tell you.because I am too nice to tell to the people her own fakeness.Sorry/Bye.Now.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Jennifer O'Dell on May 13, 2007, 08:18:18 pm
Actually, I think that I invited Julia to the forum.  I think it was a good idea, she does a nice job of spicing things up.

Look, we are not all going to agree on who we like and who we dislike from the old forum, but I bet you have more in common with each other than you think if you looked for things to agree on.  On the other hand, if we all agree on everything, there would be nothng to talk about, right..?

Jennifer


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Jennifer O'Dell on May 13, 2007, 08:22:06 pm
I also think the more different nationalities there are around here, the better.  I have no problem making someone out if they don't speak perfect English.  The more exposure that everyone has to different cultures, the better off we are.

Wish there were some Muslim people here, too, so we could see where they're coming from.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: julia on May 13, 2007, 08:39:02 pm
Dear jennifer;                                                                                                                                                                                            This is a forum It is a discussion forum.Of course  we think different ways,We have different belives andideas.thats why we came here to discuss.but some people in the other forum also and here too blame people to be fake or had some bad attitudes even if they dont even know them..And they want only their ideas and thinking ways to be written.if we dont discuss anything what is the point of a forum.??
I just reminded Bianca About Bluehue.because I know him.
Anyway, With Love and Peace-julia


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on May 13, 2007, 10:12:38 pm


JUST FOR THE RECORD:

THE FAKE I WAS REFERRING TO IS "BLUE HUE"  and I still resent 
having received the e-mails I did today!


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Mark of Australia on May 14, 2007, 03:45:17 am
Hi Julia ,

ok  ,could you clarify something please?

 You say you 'know' BlueHue ,does that mean you see him in person ,'real-life' ,three dimensions, the real deal ,etc. Not just on the net ?? 

  can I be any clearer?   because you aren't being very clear.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: julia on May 14, 2007, 11:17:33 am
Dear Mark;
Of course, I didnt see Bluehue, but I know where he is,and I know I go to Holland how to find him.We know each other from Atlan,org forum since 2-3 years.and first he told me in the private letters, that he has phenylketonuria and than he said in the forum room, because of he mixes up the sentences and the forum rooms etc. But, Otherways he is a gentelman and sensitive person( Again from his writings.)
as well as I know Dear rajesh from the Atlan.org forum he also is a gentelman from India,andhe is very kind and dear person.
I dont think there is a reason that,Bluehue lies..
greetings with Love and Peace


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on May 16, 2007, 04:43:17 am
Personally,  After a few years at that board,  I came to the conclusion that Brig deserved the honor

of being the biggest idiot there with Smiley running him a very close second.

DEAR,.  . . MAJESTON<

 :(  Yet this "biggest Idiot"
BRIGG, has typed-out more conversational posts than you, but as him beiing a moderator that came with the territory. Smiley is good in picking-up reference material.  The other day she came up with a bird'seye view of ADEN(= Atlantis !) in 3d of the Big & Smal Crater, that I did not manage to get from 'Google-Earth'.

She also exchanged notes about the form of the ADEN-Crater beiing in line with a possible circular city; the Aden Bay (=Crater.) was also once a florishing Sea-harbour enclosed i horseshoe mountains because at the time of Plato's Story, this Crater Kingdom had already sunsided in the Deukalion Flood, ( =dd 1075 bc.)before it was to be finally shaken in the Ogygos-Flood( dd 855 bc.)

I forget & FORGOT UNDER WHICH THREADPOST SHE HAS SENT ME THE BIRDSEYE-VIEW.

Nevertheless I will send by email-File attachment my Timeline (="Database".)of Atlantean Kings to her.

JULIA too is very skeptic about my ATLANTIS LOCATION IN Aden-Bay(=Crater.)but she did find some wonderfull reference material which strongly pointed in ADEN's direction, yet she too refused to admit that Aden has the better Candidacy papers over 100 other proposed locations.

GWEN also is a good reference-link seeker . She once angrly asked me if Plato's description of Atlantis situation near or in view of the Atlantic in any way resembled my discoverd actual location in a Gulf(=of-Aden.) rather than in full view of the OCEAN like in the 100 other Atlantean Theories, of the traditionalists who don't dare admit that their basic Plato Text had been already riddled with translationfaults before it was cannonised as"original"

PS
It seems that for any  reaction I have to contact each Forummember personally, so hereby I say that I think that 'GEORGEOS'(= George !!)is a tenacious person, not many scriptologists like to spend their spare-time, to explain "simple solutions"to unintrested people.

Georgeos has been outdoiing himself, for by his explanations he has gravely if unintentionally undermined his own theory and that of his 100 other Colleguae- Atlantologists. but as stubborn traditionalists they too refused to admit that Georgeos discovery of many translation flaws, undermine their theories and made them void.

The case is that since Donelly put Atlantis in the middle inbetween America and Europe, every atlantologist has taken this as a basic concept of "Atlantis" which is deadly wrong ofcourse.

'Georgeos'by his patient painstaking Greek-latin wrong translations explanations has "revealed"that Atlantis was washed not by the Atlantic Ocean at all but just by that portion that was streaming along it's Sea Coast which was rather a smaller Brance, a SEA Brance distened from the larger Ocean at its extremity resembling a giant harbour, thus called the Atlantic "SEA"and not the Atlantic Ocean.


Thus this Atlantic-or Atlantis-SEA was a GULF.  Also Plato hinted that Both this Ocean & Sea were horizontal which is not the case with the ( Western Ocean but is with the Eastern(=Indian-)Ocean Thus the GULF-of-Aden"has the best candidature-Papers.

Because of horizontallity some have suggested the Strait of Gibraltar as The Pillats of Hercules, whereas the islands of the Pillars were TEN,(= Keftiu./ Caphtor/PTHA="Pillars".)not the also horizontal Mediterranean was meant.

SOME PHILOSOPHER HAS STATED THAT ATLANTIS WAS OPPOSITE THE NILE-SOURCES AND THE MOON (= ATLAS-)MOUNTAINS.

Thus Marrocco( ancient name=Mauretania.or West Atlantis.)were Atlantis.only because some idiot Logographer named Hekataios had erroneously drawn this Vertical Nile horizontally over North-Africa, which later became the virtually non-existant "Negrito-Nile."

The tribenames along the riverborders of this non-existant Nile stayed on the map, even when Strabo latwer drew the same Nile properly vertically, with the same"Libian-Berber Tribal names now in Ethiopia, which hints that not Chaddaffi's:"Lybia"but another Lybia(= now Eritraeae was the "original-Libia all along.

Thus, almost automatically consequently this famous Tunisian LAKE- TRITONIS, was also in Erytraea( = now the Danakil valley.)

I have posted this discovery many times on other Atlantis Websites as a strong proof that The Location of Atlantis in North-Africa\ near Spain is a cartographic error, but the receipients of this notion say tbnhey want more proof otherwise they don't believe my theory

But I ask you what more "Proof"does one need? a written statement from King Atlas himself? Fine ! But who can read the South-Arabian"Atlantean"Hieroglyphs in Yemen ???

I think that to stay within this Thread-Topic, dear Georgeos has launched the start to the enclosure of the real Atlantis Location by his unwhittingly discovery that SAtlantis is not washed by( Any-) Ocean, but the Atlantic-SEA(=Gulf-of-Aden.)

Atlantis-Saga; the DANAOS(= Adam !) Myth &  Biblebook Genesis/Exodus are the same story they are not a Doublett but a Triplett. All three start with a Civil war albeit agains God or oneanother.

The Yemenites likewise after their Independance from the British ADEN-Protectorate in 1967, they started not One but Two festive Civil Wars to celebrate their independance from their Bad Teachers the British Comon Wealth(= a modern Atlantean Oikumenes !!)Now in repaying their arms debts they lack the fund to start an Atlantis-hype in Aden So the golden Palaces of Poseidon & Artemis will be shimmering in the Mud of Aden-Bay for quite a while more before being shiphoned out. from a containment Dyke.  dd 16 May-2007

Sincerely: :(  "BlueHue" :(


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Rajesh on May 20, 2007, 01:24:25 pm
Respected BlueHue:

As much as I know you on Atlantean forums since last ~ 4 years, I have to agree with Respected Julia that you are basically a very nice person. The mutual differences between the theoretical aspects need not to deter anybody from his origin and pattern of thinking without his due acceptance.

I can not forget that earlier you could locate the sturdy connections of Aleph with the Elephant and the Elephant God. I laughed it out at the first instance, but in the next breadth I understood the most serious reality hidden therein and the implications of this path-breaking finding.

With Regards... :)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: julia on May 20, 2007, 04:43:36 pm
Dear bluehue:
i am not sceptic about your theory or any theoryBecause Nothing is found yet exceptunder sea of aboukir bay in front of Nile delta..I dont know those artifacts beling to Atlantis or not of course, but They found pretty much things there..otherwise, i can accept any theory if you find the canals of Atlatis(Art least parts of them,and the historical evidence, artefacts, the things that plato decribes..
But there are really too many theories, I began too believe there was really advanced civilzation everywhere in the world in 12.000BC..:))
Dear Rajesh, thank you for supporting me.greetings  with Love and Peace.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on May 21, 2007, 01:20:37 pm
Great roman maps:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/Images/Maps/Periods/Roman/Places/Europe/
http://www.snible.org/greek/

Egypt Maps:
http://www.narmer.pl/map/mapa_en.htm
http://www.touregypt.net/mapsa.htm
****************

Ptolemy:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/

Skylax:
http://www.le.ac.uk/ar/gjs/skylax_for_www_02214.pdf

Strabo:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/

pliny the elder:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Plin.+Nat.+toc

Arrian's Periplus of the black sea (Latin):
http://books.google.com/books?vid=0vofWSlQop7JGiOZSWolIvC&id=Gn3wP2QKzTgC&pg=PP18&lpg=PP18&dq=periplus+ponti+euxini+date:1-1921

Here is the Periplus of the Red Sea:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/periplus.html

:( = :( DEAR,  DANAUS & Morris,

The Periplus was re-issued from the last 200 ad Edition in about 600 ad and would be out of date then ! by  Cosmas Pleutes a Byzantine Nestorian Monk which used this Periplus to convert , or win over the Ports and the Madras"Thomas"Christians to Nestorianism.

DANAUS-QUOTATIONS,

of Links to ancient Maps does not hide the Fact that after the Tippe-Topple of  180% and thereafter back 24 % in equilibrance, of the the Earth's axis that,  in 855 bc the names of the Places in The BlueNile Delta(= Awsah-delta.)have been swapped or taken inserted in the Nome Names oft the Lower Egypt Nomes, I mean that the"White=Wall" belongs to Upper Egypt with the White Crown, ( Denoting a White Elephant(=a "Strong Bull".)and BUTO is ther name derived from DJIBUTI.
So before  the "Turnover-YEAR 855 bc", other Nome names were present in this Northern Nile Delta.


RESPECTED  RAJESH,

ELEPHANTS means Elephant-God-of PUNT ALPHABETH is a contraction of HOUSE or HOUSE of the Elephant, indeed ALPHA= a contraction of EL-PUNA= God-of Punt, which is a Honorary Title of the White Elephant. . .


DEAR, JULIA,

Indeed I thought that only 55 theories were aired at "MELOS"2005, but now GEORGEOS told me that there were 105 Atlantologists present ( with equally 105 differend Therories! )

Sincerely, "Life"is :( = :(   "BlueHue"


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Danaus on May 31, 2007, 09:43:29 pm
Neat Tool: http://gizacalc.freehostia.com/


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bee Cha on June 01, 2007, 08:50:18 pm
Map Fuels Debate: Did Chinese Sail to New World First?
By Heather Whipps, Special to LiveScience


posted: 06 February 2006 08:37 am ET

(http://images.livescience.com/images/060206_chinese_map_02.jpg)

 
The controversial Chinese map argued by some to be from 1418. Credit: 1421.tv



Tattered and rusty orange, a map recently unfurled in Beijing has reignited an international war of words over who reached the New World first.
China is the latest to throw its sailor hat into the ring, but it won't likely be the last in this long-running, hotly contested debate.
The Chinese voyage to America theory was popularized by British amateur historian Gavin Menzies in his 2002 book entitled "1421: the Year China Discovered America." The controversial, bestselling work claims that Chinese admiral Zheng He reached the Americas more than 70 years prior to Christopher Columbus' famous voyage.
After reading "1421," Liu Gang, a Chinese lawyer, realized the potential significance of a map he'd purchased for his private collection. Dated 1418 and clearly depicting the outlines of both North and South America, the map could be used to support Menzies' theory if it proves legitimate.
Forgery?
Liu unveiled his map at a packed press conference in Beijing on Jan. 16.
Despite arousing immediate international interest, the map was quickly dismissed by many historians as an outright forgery.
"Scholars who know this field have refuted this claim under no uncertain terms," Sally K. Church, Fellow at the University of Cambridge, told LiveScience.
Geoff Wade, Senior Research Fellow at the University of Singapore's Asia Research Institute, echoed her sentiment. "The map is an 18th-century copy of a European map, as evidenced by the two hemispheres depicted, the continents shown and the non-maritime detailed [sic] depicted," he wrote recently to a group of maritime scholars.
In the other camp, Menzies is supporting Liu and the 1418 map with fervor. His key reasoning, forwarded by email from a member of his staff, is that "every continent, ocean, land, island, river shown on the 1418 map also appears on other Chinese maps of the same date or earlier. There is nothing new on the 1418 map-it simply combines everything on one sheet of paper," he said.
Menzies also points to a Portuguese map of the Americas dating from 1419 whose mistakes-like the drawing of California as an island-are thought to have been copied from cartographic errors made by the Chinese.
"In 1419 European voyages of exploration had not started. If the 1418 map is a forgery, then the 1419 map must be as well. How do you forge something yet to be discovered," Menzies reasoned.
British magazine The Economist recently printed an article about Liu's prized possession, quoting both supporters and detractors of Menzies' beliefs.
In a letter written to The Economist and provided to LiveScience, Wade, the critic of the map from the Asia Research Institute, urged its editor to print a retraction.
"That your writer has contributed to the Menzies' bandwagon and continuing deception of the public is saddening," Wade wrote. "The support mentioned all comes from Mr. Menzies' band of acolytes and the claims have no academic support whatsoever. Your writer has been taken in by Mr. Menzies and you do have a social responsibility to rectify this."
Other claims
The Chinese map controversy can be added to a growing database of claims for pre-Columbian discovery of the Americas.
According to some scholars, it was Scottish Earl Sir Henry Sinclair of Orkney who first touched American land in 1397, on one of many voyages the sailor undertook with Italian partner Nicolo Zeno. Another controversial map drawn by Zeno himself is thought to outline the coasts of Nova Scotia.
Supporters of this theory offer as evidence Sinclair's known contact with nearby Viking lords, whose ancestors unequivocally did reach North America centuries prior to any other Europeans-a feat that's often forgotten in the mix.
For now, a rewrite of the history books is unnecessary, according to Wade. "There is no need to rewrite anything except the history of 21st-century charlatans," he said.


http://www.livescience.com/history/060206_chinese_map.html


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on August 27, 2007, 10:42:50 am
A question - posted somewhere else by someone else:

If the ancient maps, eg. Piri Reis, can show the Antarctic without it's ice cover, which I assume happened gradually, until around 10,000 years ago, it was completely covered, then why don't the maps show the location of Atlantis? 

Scientists say that the Antarctic has been covered in ice for about 10,000 years.  That didn't happen over night, so let's say it took a few thousand years for the ice to cover the land mass.  A few thousand years before 10,000 years ago, Atlantis supposedly still existed.  She should be on the map also.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: HereForNow on August 27, 2007, 08:38:09 pm
A question - posted somewhere else by someone else:

If the ancient maps, eg. Piri Reis, can show the Antarctic without it's ice cover, which I assume happened gradually, until around 10,000 years ago, it was completely covered, then why don't the maps show the location of Atlantis? 

Scientists say that the Antarctic has been covered in ice for about 10,000 years.  That didn't happen over night, so let's say it took a few thousand years for the ice to cover the land mass.  A few thousand years before 10,000 years ago, Atlantis supposedly still existed.  She should be on the map also.

Did people from before an ice age exist in Antartica?
For that matter. Were they even making maps of the world that far back?



Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on August 28, 2007, 01:21:07 am
I don't know if anyone existed in the Antarctica before the ice age, but the Piri Reis map shows it, so how did he know it was there?  He said he was copying even older, ancient maps.l


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on September 11, 2007, 09:54:28 am
(http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancientimages/109.JPEG)
HERODOTUS' MAP - RECONSTRUCTION


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on September 19, 2007, 01:44:06 am
It looks to me like he is not drawing this from experience or even from an earlier map.  He was a well travelled man as well as a well educated one, and it's hard to believe he drew this for any scientific purpose.  If so, then is wasn't as knowledgeable as he is given credit for.  In the map above, he places the Red Sea below what he thinks is Africa.  In Wikipedia, (type in Herodotus and click on the first title) the map shows that area as the Erythean sea, and the sea more to the west, he called the Austral Sea.  If he knew that the Phoecian sailors had the sun to the right while sailing westwards, as they circumnavigated Africa, he should have known Africa was a whole lot bigger than he drew it. 

Which one of the words on that map means 'Asia"? 


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on September 19, 2007, 07:48:03 am


Q.

A S I A  is written on the bottom of the map in large letters just above Ethiopians and spanning

the Arabian gulf into Arabia and ends just below Persians.  Can you see it now?

b.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on September 19, 2007, 10:19:04 am
Thanks B.  I didn't notice it there :D  Couldn't see the forest for the trees!  Gees, now my fingers are going dyslexic too.  They keep typing the words wrong!


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on September 19, 2007, 11:43:12 am




ROTFLMAO, Q.!

I have days like that all the time!!!

b


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on October 17, 2007, 02:05:19 pm
(http://navtica.com/data/pre/loc163.pre.jpg)






Name: Agnese World Map

Creator: Battista Agnese
Year: 1544


Description:  This world map in oval projection shows the route of Magellan's circumnavigation and the

 Spain-Peru trade route via Panama. 12 Cherubs represent the classical wind directions. 


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on October 17, 2007, 02:12:02 pm
(http://navtica.com/data/pre/mf000070.pre.jpg)




Name: WORLD
 
Creator: Forlani,Paola -Italy
Year: 1565


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on October 17, 2007, 02:33:03 pm
(http://navtica.com/data/pre/lxc250018.pre.jpg)






Name: Waldseemuller



Creator: Waldseemuller Martin
Year: 1507





Description:  The pictures of Ptolemy in the upper left and Amerigo Vespucci in the upper right lead some to theorize This map is the first time that the name "America" was ever used and was named for Vespucci's 1497 voyage which is believed to be the first time that anyone actually set foot on American soil.  The belief in a new continent was a radical idea at the time. Vespucci may have collaborated with Martin Waldseemuller and Matthias "Philesius" Ringmann on this map.


http://navtica.com/?gclid=CL7zvJjPlo8CFQ6CPAodYQ1ieg


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on October 29, 2007, 03:04:27 pm
(http://atlantis.haktanir.org/athanasius_kircher1.gif)

 Athanasius Kircher's map (1669).


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on December 03, 2007, 02:25:03 pm
THANK You ,  BIANCA, for this link to the NAUTICA OLD WORLD printing website !

 :) These " Thumbsize "  reprints cannot be enllarged from the specimen page !  to read the fine print but that is logical. I will have to search for a full size of the Waldseemuller map elsewhere, particulrly the south Arabian region is intresting to me and east Africa because the ancient name for Atlantis ATHE is featured above the Placename Ras- ADEN, and in present Erytrea on the Waldeemuller map the words LYBIA svb sive AEGYPTO appears as my" PROOF " that ancient Lybia ( of Plato !0 was in East-Africa and not in North-Africa which was named MAURETANIA around 1500 ad and NOT " Lybia" .  GOOD WORK  Bianca, keep it up !

Sincerely "  BlueHue " dd. 3 Dec 2007.   :'(

Ps,

" Isle of Atlantidis"  it says, on this Frontispice
  from the " Mundus subterraneus " from Kircher printed in Amsterdam in 1669-reprinted 1680 .
THIS is the very CAUSE why all Atlantologists are misguided by the Name Atlantis.

INSULA - ATLANTIDIS is not a GEO-NAME, it is a possesional PRO-NOUN, you will agree with me, that without the Part: " INSULA " the -TIDIS- is obsolete/ superfluous ! and thus the SOLE -geographical- name should read: ATLANT !( Actually AD-LAND">in Koran Surats, this is synomymous for:  Ras- ADEN.)

It is doubtfull that Plato would have named his Atlantic Isle-City:" ATLANTIDIS or Atlantis-City" whilst it was POSEIDONIS and not Atlantis-City !      Ofcourse the naming of Atlantis-City as City-of- POSEIDON would confuse the issue even if it is the Truth, we will have tio compromize and continue to re-name POSEIDONIS as: " Atlantis-Metropolis."  But it feels like a-legal- falsification of the original name.

Hence if Atlantologists base their- scientific- Theses on Atlantis and not on the true name POSEIDONIS or Ad-Land they are barking-up the wrong tree. . .

PS.  
If we would name AMERICA the same fashion as' ATLANTIS' ior Atlantide, it would read:" AMERICANIS ": instead of America !~


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on March 30, 2008, 10:31:02 pm
(http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancientimages/105.JPEG)

Reconstruction of Homer's view of the world


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on March 30, 2008, 10:32:21 pm
TITLE: World view according to Homer
DATE: prior to 900 B.C.
AUTHOR: Homer
DESCRIPTION: These slides show reconstructions of the world/earth view held by the early Greek poet Homer. The Homeric conception of the world represented as a flat, circular disc of land surrounded by a continuous ocean-stream remained a popular notion in the Greek world even after many philosophers and scientists had accepted the theory of the sphericity of the earth enunciated by the Pythagoreans and subjected to theoretical proof by Aristotle. In this interpretation the world is like a plateau on the top of a mountain; inside this, close to the surface of the earth, lies the House of Hades, the realm of Death, and beneath it Tartarus, the realm of Eternal Darkness. The plateau of the earth is surrounded by Oceanus, the world river, and from its periphery rises the fixed dome of the sky. The sun, the moon, and the stars rise from the waters at the edge of the dome, move in an arc above the earth, and then sink once again into the sea to complete their course beneath the Oceanus. The atmosphere above the mountain of the earth is thick with clouds and mist, but higher up is the clear Æther with its starry ceiling.

The earliest literary reference for cartography in Greece is difficult to interpret. Its context is the description of the shield of Achilles in the Iliad of Homer thought by modern scholars to have been written in the 8th century B.C. Since both Strabo (ca. 64/63 B.C.-A.D. 21 ) and the Stoics claimed Homer was the founder and father of a "geographical science", generally understood as involving both maps and treatises, it is tempting to start a history of Greek theoretical cartography with Homer's description of this mythical shield. If this interpretation is valid, then it must also be accepted that Homer was describing a cosmological map. Although from the Hellenistic Period onward the original meaning of the term geography was a description of the earth, ge, written or drawn (mapping and geographical descriptions were thus inseparable in the Greek world); it is equally clear that Greek mapmaking included not only the representation of the earth on a plane or globe, but also delineations of the whole universe. The shield in Homer's poem, made for Achilles by Hephæstus, god of fire and metallurgy, was evidently such a map of the universe as conceived by the early Greeks and articulated by the poet.

Despite the literary form of the poem, it gives us a clear picture of the various processes in the creation of this great work with its manifestly cartographic symbolism. We are told how Hephæstus forged a huge shield laminated with five layers of metal and with a three-layered metal rim. The five places that made up the shield consisted of a gold one in the middle, a tin one on each side of this, and finally two of bronze. On the front bronze plate we are told that he fashioned his designs in a concentric pattern; a possible arrangement is suggested in the reconstruction provided herein. The scenes of the earth and heavens in the center, two cities (one at peace and one at war), agricultural activity and pastoral life, and "the Ocean, that vast and might river" around the edge of the hard shield denote his intention of presenting a synthesis of the inhabited world as an island surrounded by water. Hephæstus depicted the universe in miniature on Achilles' shield, and Homer, in his poetry, only provides a commentary on this pictorial representation. As with the Thera fresco, which is roughly contemporaneous with the subject of Homer's poem, the juxtaposition on the shield of scenes and actions that in reality could not occur at the same time shows the artist's desire to portray a syncretism of human activity.

In light of the archaeological discoveries of cultures that certainly influenced Homer's poetry, the content of Achilles' shield seems less extraordinary. Homer was writing at a time not much earlier than the first manifestations of what is considered the beginning of Greek science. His poem may be interpreted as the poetic expression of macro-cosmic/micro-cosmic beliefs, held by a society seeking to reconcile a general view of the universe with man's activity within it. Hephæstus, the divine smith, is chosen to give a complete image of the cosmos - earth, sea, and sky together with scenes of human life. The main constellations - Orion, the Hyades, the Pleiades, and the Great Bear - are described, suggesting that a tradition had already developed of using these groups of stars to identify different parts of the sky. The shield includes a representation of the sun and moon shining simultaneously, again in an attempt to integrate a general knowledge of the sky into one depiction. Even in this poetic form we can glimpse the use of a map, almost as a heuristic device, to bring some order into concept and observation and to codify the early Greeks' reflections on the nature and constitution of their world.

At the same time, we should be clear that the map on Achilles' shield was not intended to communicate a literal view of geographical knowledge of the world as known to the early Greeks. The scenes from rural and urban life are arranged on the surface of the shield in no apparent geographical order. They simply present a generalized and metaphorical view of human activity and of the profound interdependence of human beings in spite of the variety and specialties of their pursuits. This human unity is emphasized by the ocean encircling the whole shield, rendering the world an island. Homer depicts no maritime activity in his social microcosm: the ocean seems to be no more than a geometric framework for the knowable inhabited world, a frame work W.A. Heidel considers to be the essential feature of all maps from ancient Greece.

So detailed is Homer's description that, though clearly an imaginary map, Achilles' shield represents a useful glimpse of the early history of efforts to map the world. Probably much of it is conventional, and much also is fanciful. Indeed, it was the subject of ridicule by later writers. Strabo summarized the view:

Some men, have believed in these stories themselves and also in the wide learning of the poet, have actually turned the poetry of Homer to their use as a basis of scientific investigations... Other men, however, have greeted all attempts of that sort with such ferocity that they not only have cast out the poet.... from the whole field of scientific knowledge of this kind, but also have supposed to be madmen all who have taken in hand such a task as that.

But the description no doubt reflects elements present in real maps of the time, many of which were widely used later on. Stars are named and grouped into constellations; the limits of the known world are fixed by means of the ocean, real or imaginary, that encircles the inhabited world; and there is an attempt to give pride of place to human activity in this world scene.


LOCATION: (map only exists as a reconstruction)


REFERENCES:
*Berthon, S., Robinson, A., The Shape of the World (color)
Dilke, O.A.W, Greek and Roman Maps, pp. 20, 24, 36-7, 55, 62,131.
*Harley, J.B., The History of Cartography, Volume One, pp. 131-32.
Heidel, W.A., The Frame of the Ancient Greek Maps, p. 8.
*Landström, B., Bold Voyages and Great Explorers, p. 27. (color)
Wroth, L.C., The Early Cartography of the Pacific, p. 93.

*illustrated


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/AncientWebPages/105mono.html


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Morrison on March 30, 2008, 10:36:21 pm
(http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancientimages/102.JPEG)

Turin Papyrus, 1300 B.C.

http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/AncientWebPages/102.html


http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/AncientWebPages/AncientL.html


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on March 31, 2008, 02:22:08 am
A portion of Achilles's shield - fantastic workmanship:

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/war/Armor/AchillesSh.jpg


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on May 16, 2008, 08:35:19 am
TITLE: World view according to Homer
DATE: prior to 900 B.C.
AUTHOR: Homer
DESCRIPTION: These slides show reconstructions of the world/earth view held by the early Greek poet Homer. the House of Hades, the realm of Death, and beneath it Tartarus, the realm of Eternal Darkness. The plateau of the earth is surrounded by Oceanus, the world river, manifestly cartographic symbolism. We are told how Hephæstus forged a huge shield laminated with five layers of metal and with a three-layered metal rim. The five places that made up the shield consisted of a gold one in the middle, a tin one on each side of this, and finally two of bronze. On the front bronze plate we are told that he fashioned his designs in a concentric pattern;
.
.Dear.........MORRISON,
.
Sometimes the Map of HECATAIOS( 512) is shown instead of HOMERus or Hetrodotus
in the firsst case the Nile is represented HORIZONTAL with Homerus the Nile is drawn oblique and with Hetrodotus the same nale is finally in the Correct vertical position.

HOWEVER the WRITTEN POSITION OF THE tribes that were described by Hecataios to be living alongside this" NEGRITO-HORIZONTAL-Nile RIVER REMAINED IN PLACE. Whilst they obviously should have accompahnied the anti-Clockwise shifting of the Nile.

CONCLUSION:

The Tribes that live today in Morocco bear wrong names which actually belong to other tribes alongside the ( Ethiopian-)Nile further South !
This is hard to prove etymologically because  the original Tribal names had meanwhile changed their pronounciation and henche the form of writing.

The Socalled LIXITAE in Morroco should thus be the  LINGISTIONES that ODYSSEUS found to be the Tallest people on Earth that walked on Sticks and carried a Lionhead pouch on their bellies. :'( :'( :'(


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on June 09, 2008, 06:46:28 am
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t267/Qoais/scan0001.jpg)


MAP OF ANCIENT MEDITERRANEAN WORLD
COURTESY OF QOAIS

Map created from two pages of an Atlas owned by AO Member Qoais


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on June 09, 2008, 05:34:35 pm
You're a sweetie B, what would we do without'cha? :-*


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on June 09, 2008, 06:22:20 pm





QUOTE:



"You're a sweetie B, what would we do without'cha?"


No, Q., it's you who's the 'sweetie', I'm just here to catch all YOUR GOOD 'STUFF'.......


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on July 24, 2008, 08:38:04 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Dauphin_Map_of_Canada_-_circa_1543_-_Project_Gutenberg_etext_20110.jpg/718px-Dauphin_Map_of_Canada_-_circa_1543_-_Project_Gutenberg_etext_20110.jpg)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on July 24, 2008, 02:03:15 pm
A portion of Achilles's shield - fantastic workmanship:

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/war/Armor/AchillesSh.jpg

ACHILLES lived about 860 bc( Not 1350 bc. nor 1125 bc.)

If on the other half of this FESTIVE Shield are no Assyrians depicted

Than Assyrian Hegemony got hold of mainland Greece after 855 bc

The socalled SHIELD o  HERACLES who was CONTEMPORARY with Achilles,
does have Egyptian & ASSYRIAN motives on it ! :'( :o :'(

Post Scriptum:
Don't READ BlueHue's Subscript( You may get the wiser !)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on July 24, 2008, 02:10:19 pm
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t267/Qoais/scan0001.jpg)


MAP OF ANCIENT MEDITERRANEAN WORLD
COURTESY OF QOAIS

Map created from two pages of an Atlas owned by AO Member Qoais

TARRA  - CONENSIS
 is the Latin rendering of OIKOUMENE- PELAGOUS(= BAY of Atlantis.)
BUT the Latin Compilers made it into " Atlantis - PELLAGIO, which indeed means " ISLAND- Realm".)

So " Atlantis " is a FAKE geo-Name ! :'( :o :'(

Post Scriptum:
Don't READ. " BlueHue's Subscript. . . You might get the Wiser !. . . )


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on September 13, 2008, 03:19:40 am
Does anybody know of any any maps showing S. Africa from before the 1500's??


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on September 30, 2008, 02:02:33 pm
Does anybody know of any any maps showing S. Africa from before the 1500's??
:'(   :o   :'(
 Most probably these would be in portuegese  but there are no portueguese atlantologists present !


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on November 05, 2008, 12:47:26 pm
Whatabout stories that I heard of the ink on the PIRI- REIS  Map ?
south-America map beiing of a mopdern origine ?

That a Catholic Priest from Copenhagen had faked it in 1925 in order to prove
that the VIKINGS from Danemark were in America before Columbus was !
He slipped the Faked Map into the Archives box at the TOPKAPI- museum at Constantinople
But You sdiscard this story as a TALL  TALE ? perhaps ?

As a LOCAL - Dutchman I allready know that The OURA - LINDA BOOK IS A fake
made by a Dutch Schoolmaster from City of Leeuwarden ( capital of Friesland, )
 who wanted to seem that Friesland or ATLAND was the oldest Race & Civilasaition in this World.

Sincerely " BlueHue  " dd 5 Nov. 2008 :'( :o :'(

ANCIENT MAPS

Introduction


The subject of ancient maps belongs to the category of “unusual knowledge” in the sense that some of these maps display knowledge about things that are not compatible with their age. From the standpoint of analysis, it is one of the easiest to deal with, because most or all of the work has already been done by Charles Hapgood, and published in his book Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings. His work came to the attention of a more general public by Erich von Däniken’s Chariots of the Gods, which was a pity, because it came associated with all of the other material of Von Däniken, and was more or less ignored and/or rejected on the basis of this other material.

The latter violation of the rules of good science is considerably worse than the ones Von Däniken made. Von Däniken was just overly enthusiastic in his interpretation of data, but he did not destroy any data. The latter is effectively what his critics did do, by tarnishing Von Däniken’s data together with his interpretations. Putting Hapgood’s data on the same level as stories about the city plan of Atlantis is a gross violation of the rules of good science, because the data of Hapgood is objective and can be tested by anyone at any given time, and in effect this is quite easy, as will be shown here.

The most famous example of these ancient maps is the one named after the Turkish admiral and cartographer Piri Reis (or Piri Re’is), see left (click on it for an enlargement). Its earliest known time of existence is as late as 1929, while it is dated 1513, but nevertheless its authenticity is not really disputed. On first inspection it looks as inaccurate as one would expect of an ancient map. So there would not have been a cause for alarm when it was discovered, and until the time it was send to America in 1953, where first its hidden accuracy was discovered, and later, when Hapgood was called in, other remarkable features. Hapgood subsequently started a wider investigation of ancient maps in general, which turned up many more with these features



Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on November 15, 2008, 06:03:18 pm
(http://www.uwm.edu/Library/AGSL/images/leardo_full_screen.jpg)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on November 19, 2008, 06:54:20 am
(http://www.rsoperations.com/History/Cartography/cosmo_1.jpg)

MUNSTER'S COSMOGRAPHIA
1300 AD


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on November 19, 2008, 06:58:55 am
(http://www.rsoperations.com/History/Cartography/genes_1.jpg)

GENOESE CHART OF THE WORLD
1457 AD


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on November 19, 2008, 07:10:19 am
(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/Articles/Maps/images/Map_Orbis_Veteribus_Notus_800.jpg)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on January 29, 2009, 04:56:05 pm
After 1500 ad,  some SPANISH cartographers thought
that COLUMBUS was seeking the 'origional' Atlantis in America.

So they made off-hand Maps of South ANDnoth- America
featuring truly Atlantic names on american soil.

The TEN socalled Atlantic Isles were however changed into Spanish provinces
The Name Memphis and Atlanta maybe an indication that
even where Columbus had not visited
Caboto still renamed coasts in truly Columbusian fashion:

Cape HATTERAS should be" GADEIRAS" the " Gades "of Atlantis
MAIN at the Right hand Top corner refers to MINOAN or MAIN
(= a Sabaean-kingdom in West Araby.

the YUCCATAN peninsula of Mexico referrs to the jewish
Tribe of ' YOKTAN ' in the East of Yemen(= IOMAN/Iavan.)

It is obvious( to me only perhaps.) that Columbus was seeking Atlantis
around 1500 ad But when King ferdinad out of political-expediency(!)
declared SPAIN as the 'original' Atlantis Columbus goal had to give way!

So Columbus subterfuge became that he was NOT seeking Atlantis/ Atlantida
but " INDIA " a brilliant subterfuge because " Atlantis " was subdivided
into the " THREE  INDIA's " probably unknown to the king of SPAIN
who must have thought that Columbus was now seeking a shorter way to " INDIA "

However:
of The THREE INDIA's the present ' India' is but a minor part
hence it WAS named " India-Minor "

Somalia was named" India-Major " and ARABY was named" INDIA- Media"
where the( Biblical-)Medianites lived otherwise called the:"Hatti or Mitanni"

This only prooves that Columbus did know that Atlantis the KNOWN- World was
synonymous to ARABY, why else would he allow for arabic-names for his" Atlantis" in America -Map"!

in 250 bc for political expediency Eratosthenes transferrede the MAP of ETHIOPIA
and overlayed it on the northers coast of Africa.

This means that traditional " EUROPEAN" geo-names actually belonged to ETHIOPIA.
FRANCE was originally the SUDAN, ISRAEL/Phoenicia was originally in Hadramaut,
italy and the mediaterranean Sea were originally in: Hedjaz/Yemen and the Red- Sea

So SPAIN as Atlantis would on the recorrected Herodotus map be in Aden. Get it ? ;D
See my Subscript ( bottom Post) for more detaills
 it would be dead easy for You to verify my theory-Claim by finding the right maps ! Atta girl ! :P

" BlueHue " dd 22 Jan 2009


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Boreas on February 03, 2009, 05:44:19 pm
(http://www.rsoperations.com/History/Cartography/cosmo_1.jpg)

MUNSTER'S COSMOGRAPHIA
1300 AD

1300...?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmographia_(Sebastian_M%C3%BCnster)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on February 03, 2009, 06:13:09 pm


Thanks for catching that, Boreas.

Munster was born in 1488......

I'll have to check on the date and correct it.


Well, not MY mistake, look:


http://www.rsoperations.com/History/Cartography/Cartography.htm


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on February 03, 2009, 06:17:03 pm



                       (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Cosmographia_titelblatt_der_erstausgabe.JPG/408px-Cosmographia_titelblatt_der_erstausgabe.JPG)








                                                     Cosmographia (Sebastian Münster)






From
wikipedia.org

 
Cover of first edition, printed in Basel by Heinrich PetriThe Cosmographia by Sebastian Münster (1488 – 1552)
from 1544 is the earliest German description of the world.

It had numerous editions in different languages including Latin, French (translated by François de Belleforest), Italian, English, and even Czech. The last German edition was published in 1628, long after his death.

The Cosmographia was one of the most successful and popular books of the 16th century. It passed through 24 editions in 100 years. This success was due to the fascinating woodcuts (some by Hans Holbein the Younger, Urs Graf, Hans Rudolph Manuel Deutsch, and David Kandel). It was most important in reviving geography in 16th century Europe.

His first geographic works were Germania descriptio (1530) und Mappa Europae (1536). In 1540 he published a Latin edition of Ptolemy's Geographia with illustrations. The 1550 edition contains cities, portraits, and costumes. These editions, printed in Germany, are the most valued of the Cosmographias.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on February 03, 2009, 06:21:46 pm







Content of the 1544–1598 editions






Book I - Astronomy, Mathematics, Physical Geography, Cartography

Book II - England, Scotland, Ireland, Spain, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Luxembourg, Savoy, Trier, Italy

Book III - Germany, Alsace, Switzerland, Austria, Carniola, Istria, Bohemia, Moravia, Silesia, Pomerania, Prussia, Livland

Book IV - Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Walachia, Bosnia, Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey

Book V - Asia Minor, Cyprus, Armenia, Palestine, Arabia, Persia, Central Asia, Afghanistan, Scythia, Tartary, India, Ceylon, Burma, China, East Indies, Madagascar, Zanzibar, America

Book VI - Mauritania, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Senegal, Gambia, Mali, South Africa, East Africa






Editions of Cosmographia



German 1544, 1546, 1548, 1550, 1553, 1556, 1558, 1561, 1564, 1567, 1569, 1572, 1574, 1578, 1588, 1592, 1598, 1614, 1628

Latin 1550, 1552, 1554, 1559, 1572

French 1552, 1556, 1560, 1565, 1568, 1575

Italian 1558, 1575

Czech 1554



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmographia_(Sebastian_M%C3%BCnster)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Boreas on February 03, 2009, 06:58:07 pm
Hm -

There is obviously a tail to the dating Muster-map. According to the source the;

"North Atlantic region is essentially a Viking view dating from the 12-14th centuries. One of the last wood-engraved maps, done in the style of copper-plate engraving. Published posthumously by H. Petri (son in law) in Basle, Switzerland."

http://www.rsoperations.com/History/Cartography/Photo_Gallery.htm

So there's still some unknown sides to the history of the first maps of the "new world"...! 
Anyway - good going and tx or the valuable contribution, B. ;)



Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on February 06, 2009, 09:34:28 am
Map Fuels Debate: Did Chinese Sail to New World First?
By Heather Whipps, Special to LiveScience


posted: 06 February 2006 08:37 am ET

 
The controversial Chinese map argued by some to be from 1418. Credit: 1421.tv


http://www.livescience.com/history/060206_chinese_map.html


Hitler's diaries were thought to be genuine too by the SPRINGER Publishing Co. in Germany
 until his pensioned secretary revealed that he did not have time to write them.

Are you familliar with " Donald-Duck Comics "?
A Comic featured the number of Claims to the discovery of America.
The Story designer made the Case in retrospect.

He claimed that the Indian nation " Discoveredand claimed Europe before
the Europeans discovered America and thus
Europe should legally belong to America. . .

The real Atlantis Location
 has been obscured by the forgottern Fact that
Eratosthenes forged the Map of Atlantis by Overlaying it
over north-Africa and thus making SPAIN as' Atlantis"

in 250 bc by political expediency while it actually was in Ethiopia
See my subscript(= bottom post page.)


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on February 06, 2009, 09:42:35 am
Eratosthenes" Moved" the PILLARS to Gibraltar
(from Ethiopia .) by political expediency in 250 bc. Read it in my Subscript( Post-bottom.) :P
Klicking on your LINKS results in " The Page cannot be found". Can you rectify that ?

Hm -
There is obviously a tail to the dating Munster-map.
"North Atlantic region is essentially a Viking view dating from the 12-14th centuries. One of the last wood-engraved maps, done in the style of copper-plate engraving. Published posthumously by H. Petri (son in law) in Basle, Switzerland."
http://www.rsoperations.com/History/Cartography/Photo_Gallery.htm
So there's still some unknown sides to the history of the first maps of the "new world"...! 
Anyway - good going and tx for the valuable contribution, B. ;)




Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on February 06, 2009, 09:53:40 am
Dear ;....... JULIA '

Eratosthenes" Moved" the PILLARS to Gibraltar from Ethiopia,( and thus Aden !)
only in 250 bc,  Since the Source of the Nile was adjacent to Atlantis, then
Ethiopia was part of Atlantis', read my Subscript ( Bottom of Post.)

Dear BlueHue:
i am not skeptic about your theory or any theory Because Nothing is found yet
 except under sea of aboukir bay in front of Nile delta.. They found pretty much things there..otherwise, that plato decribes..
But there are really too many theories, I believe too there was really advanced civilzation everywhere in the world in 12.000 bc..:))
Dear Rajesh, thank you for supporting me. greetings  with Love and Peace.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on February 06, 2009, 10:31:15 am
In my contention the MOON fell on Antartica in the  greek deluge called the Titano-Machy dd 1055 bc :'( :o :'(
this may be the causer of the large crevass dividing Antartica in two ( unequal )halves.
" BlueHue  "
which also caused the Seafloorspreading of the Atlantic Ocean & the Andes to rise aswell. ( Mind you, all as late as: the Quartair/Holocene.)

The present notion that the ANDES & Himalay Mnt-range were raized in the Eocene or 20 mil yrs ago doesn't hold water.

(http://www.altarcheologie.nl/geoarchaeology/ancient_maps_files/bauchemap.jpg)

Map of Antarctica by Philippe Bauche, 1737, discovered by Hapgood in the Library of Congress in 1960. Other maps of the time have a void at the place of Antarctica, becuase it had not yet been discovered. Note that it shows Antarctica as composed out of two parts, just like it is under the ice cap.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on February 06, 2009, 10:47:17 am
For your information:
I am 1.85m tall, blue eyes, age 48(= 25 April 1960.)suffer from incontinence and Rhumathoiid Arthritis in hans and feet.
had one unsuccesfull glaucome operation ( 40 % eyesight in the other eye.)
and my bike was stolen for the 3-rd time at the same busstop recently.
I suffer from prenatal Alzheimers' disease ( " Phase=1" )
Neighbours complain that I as internet-RECLUSE
am a " Stigma" to the neighbourhood.

I placed 'Atlantis ' in Aden. :'( :o :'(

Read my Subscript> (Bottom Posting.)dd 6 Febr 2009

Does this satisfy your earlier curiosity ?  Sincerely " Bluehue  "

Hi Julia ,

ok  ,could you clarify something please?

 You say you 'know' BlueHue ,on the net ??  can It be any clearer?   


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: no thing on February 06, 2009, 10:57:37 am
BlueHue,

I have noticed your mention of the "MOON fell on Antartica" in several of your postings. Would you elaborate on this please?

Thanks.

ILAL

no thing


Title: Re: Ancient Maps( from: before Earth stood still.)
Post by: BlueHue on February 07, 2009, 09:18:37 am
BlueHue and 23 Guests are viewing this Topic.

SURE,........NO THING,

( But I hope that 'BIANCA' will exonerate this reply which is not on this Topic !)

However I am sure that the answer/elaboration that you asked for
will not be the one that you set your expectancy on.
So my effort to tell you will be a futile exercise !

I don't mind repeating my theory:
conserning the historical MOON- Fall(-s) to Earth.

The Pelgaskian Creation Myth
mentions that the MOON" Eurynome" bashed Mars' northern Ocean.

The marsfragments fell to Earth made Skidmarks and left the scene
Well known passing meteorites may be the renments of this meteoric encounter.

In the Saudi Desert meteoric-r craters are present with an average Diametre  of 100 m
These fell on Waterlakes in the former marshlands of the Rub-al- Chali desert(-s)

But the Pelgaskian Creation Myth describes the first observed-Moonfall .
When Earth's PANGEA was still intact and the meteoric Skidmarks were straight alined.

Later,after Gondwana, PANGEA fell apart, not because of Hotspot-convection but6 by the 1-st Moonfall
( on Antartica ) which caused the Seafloorspreading of the Atlantic Ocean the Date is 1055 bc.

200 years later occurred the Second MOONfall on Hawaii and this collision emptied all mountain-lakes
by paleo-geologists this Event is called the ( Great-)@Quarternary lake( Dam-) Burst of post Glacial time
supposedly in 8.000 bc but actually in 855 bc

If the Neolithic Period of Magdalien( in Europe.)was conventionally in 8.000 bc now it was in 855 bc
meaning that When the Egyptians enjoyed their 18-th Dynasty, Whole Europe( eg Franche)was still in the neolythic Epoch.

HOW do we know that the Moon ACTUALLY BRUISED EARTH TWICE ?

The Egyptian astronomers mention a Moonfall in 800 bc but did so 50 years after the Event !

The cause of all ancient Floods/or Tsunamies was a close passage of the MOON.
The MOON had an irratic Orbit passing by the Equator to cause Tsunamie EVERY YEAR
and a big one EVERY 50 Years.

Even today a grand Earthquake occurs every 50 years too long apart to be recognized as a recurrent  Patern.
1755 Lissabon .......1883 ...........Krakatau,.......... 1815 Tambora, 1906 San fransisco, 1925 Japan,  2004/5 the latest Asian Tsunami

The MOON was named the PHENIX in Latin, but PHAETHON or: ATON in Greek
thus ACH en ATON's " SUN " Disk was the Moon's Red-glowing winged Disk.

Anyway the Egyptians and greeks sought an exp[lanation Why earth was Destroyed by Tsunamies
They argued that the FIRE or Phenix- Bird scourced Earth every: 50(0)years to be" Reborn"from Ashes.

There is a recognizable pattern of 50-year cycle recurrent Tsunamies in greek Myth:
1255 Deluge of NOACH(= Sargon-1 of AGADES.)1075 Deluge of PHORONEUS, 1055 Deluge of DEUCALION
1005 Deluge of King DAVID(= Thotmosis-2)( he was given" Choice" between Long Famin or Short Plague( he chose the last .)
955 Deluge of ANDROMEDA( ex-wife of PERSEUS(= Thotmosis-3)
905 Deluge of Enki & Enlil, 855 Deluge of OGYGOS(= Amenhotep-3 + 4.)

The 1055 bc Event is named in GREEK: the TITANO- MACHY when ZEUS was cast or hidden in Earth's Dycte grotto( in Yemen -Ioman.)
The -855 bc Event is named: the GIGANTO- MACHY, when the MOON rose from the Sea as" Aphrodite or: " DIONE- Nyssos"

In 1055 bc Hera was displeased with her ugly offspring HEFAISTOS and casted him to Earth
in 855 bc ZEUS was displeased wityh his ugly son and re-casted him to Earth a second time.
The Isle of SAMOS claimed that Hephaistos landed on it and in gratitude created the Retsina Wine

Although Hephaistos was taken0-in again at the Olympus-Palace he was revence-full
and created a golden Chair for Hera( or: CASSIOPEIA.) that clasped her middle to the backseat.
And Zeus hinged golden Anvils to Hera's ankles.

Although or maybe because MARS was Hephaistos Uncle,
he too was kept prisoner for a while in Hephaistos gift of a Golden vase.

Meanwhile Hephaistos also had made the" NECKLAGE of Queen Sita Kamose
but Semenkare gave this to Hypsyhile to get her husband, Adrastus uncle ( forget name)
to participate in the TROJAN - War.

In the BIBLE/ Tora
the MOON- Fall is decribed as the
FALLEN - ANGEL !
This LIGHT Angel or LUCIPHER, Heosphorus, was named the " SPLENDOUR- of - ISRAEL "
He was the Prince of Light or Darkness afterwards. called BELIAL or BAAL/ Ballat presently: ALLAH !

DIABOLO, CAITAN/ Satan was the Licht Angel ARIEL,
afterwards called AZRAEL,  Azazel who's AVATAR was the Beast of the APOCALYPSE
 called BEHEMOTH(= the White holi- Elephant.)

In 855 bc King Salmanasser-3 besieged ADEN.
( He had wrested this  city from the Egyptians)
The City council of ADEN choosed this Date of year
because according to their MOON Chart a Grand Tsunami was due

That Tsunami did not fail to occur and the ASSYRIAN Army was washed away and the Siege was lifted !

However King Salmanasser-3was undaunted, he amounted another Siege in 853 bc
known as the " BATTLE -of- KARKAR( = ADEN as the " City -of- Cities ".)

This time the Tsunami- schedule was averted and ADEN fell to the Assyrians
in the Bible the Battle of KARKAR is said to have been in KARchemish (at the Orontes.)
But this is due to Eratosthenes " moving" the PILLARS to Gibraltar( by political expediency.)
causing the South Arabian Scene to " move-up" also to North- Araby.

Salmanasser-3 knew that the Atlantoii in Aden worshipped the Sea-Horse or White Elephant.
So he ordered this MOON-Avatar as TABOO meaning that every Icon of it to be removed on penalty of death.
Afterwards White holi Elephants were painted as winged Lions or Winged Snakes, to circumvent the taboo-penalty.

CONCLUSION:

MOON in greek Myth collided twice with Earth
( Causing the rise of Mountains: Andes & Hymalay by Seismic waves.

A TABOO decree by assyrian-Emperor Salmanasser-3 in 855 bc
caused these Events to be hidden or blurred in the rewritten Greek Lore after 855 bc.

If this is not the explanation that you were looking for,
it is because it is a " dissident -theory" only discovered by" BlueHue"
and discarded as" just another odd theory" by the other Atlantist theorists.

Sincerely" BlueHue  " dd 7-th Febr. 2009  Polytech-Univ.of delft/ Holland.


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: no thing on February 07, 2009, 10:53:31 am
BlueHue,

Thank you for taking the time to expand on this. I had seen your comments on the moon fall to earth before and did not have any point of reference to relate it to. Interesting.

ILAL

no thing


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: BlueHue on February 10, 2009, 01:54:31 pm
By fragmentation of information the Greek accounts of the( 2 ) Moon-Fall(-s)has been overlooked.
First in 1055 bc Hera threw Hephaistos to Earth tio spite Zeus, thaan 200 years later:
Zeus trew Hephaistos again to Earth to spite Hera, but Hephaistos made her a golden Chair (that kept her seated)

The Myth of Hephaistos/ Vulcan says that " The MOON " because of it's recurrentEarth fall
now limps and in modern Jargon this is the" LIBATION-move of the Moon.

we in Europe seen the same MOON as in America -only- in Europe it is positioned upside down.
the wrong or gullible opinion of layman observants,  is often that this is a " Printing Error "

JUPITERS' Giant Red Spot
 is nearly alway printed upside down too so I cannot say off-hand
which is the right position: in Myth ATHENA was born from jupiter's forehead

but in reality the Giant red Spot should be  Jupiter's belly.
On the other hand, in order to see jupiter's giant red Spot on top instaed of the Plante's bottom
the Greek and egyptians must have used a( Newton-Type) Telescope there is no other ( save metaphoric!)explantion !

BlueHue,

Thank you for taking the time to expand on this. I had seen your comments on the moon fall to earth before and did not have any point of reference to relate it to. Interesting.

ILAL

no thing


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on May 19, 2009, 11:57:58 am
(http://courses.essex.ac.uk/LT/LT361/images/world%20maps/ortelius_1570_04.jpg)


ORTELIUS WORLD MAP - 1570


Title: Re: Ancient Maps ARABY was Atlantis >>in the " Land of the HYPERBOREANS !"
Post by: BlueHue on May 22, 2009, 09:49:17 am
COLUMBUS gave arabic names to America or " INDIA - NOVA
because he expected to land in ARABY which he thought was Atlantis.
Which was the home of ancient jews named Hebrews(= a derivation of: HYPER-boreans.)

Unfortunately America was thus discovered wholy by accident in 1500 ad
to make propaganda for SPAIN as a New-World power, FERDINAND-1 proclaimed
SPAIN( not America !) as the" original" Atlantis with the PILLARS at Gibraltar.

Forgetting that ERATOSTHENES had in: 250 bc moved these PILLARS to Gibraltar( from Aden/Bab al Mandab Strait.)

Sincerely " Blue Hue " dd may 22--2009


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Bianca on May 22, 2009, 10:14:20 am





BLUE HUE:



YOU REALLY SCREWED UP THIS WHOLE SUBJECT, DIDN'T YOU?



JUST AS YOU HAD INTENTED, YOU DISGUSTING


                                                   T   R   O   L   L


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on September 08, 2009, 10:55:22 pm
(http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t267/Qoais/Frisland.jpg)

This map was made around 1693 by Vincenzo Maria Coronelli and situates Frisland to the east of Greenland.

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/01/12/62-frisland-an-italian-fabrication-in-the-north-atlantic/

The discovery of America was an Italian enterprise, but not to the credit of a Genoan named Columbus. In the 14th century, Venetian brothers Nicolo and Antonio Zeno sailed west on the Northern Atlantic, discovering places they called Frisland and Icaria (two islands near Greenland), Estotiland (on the North American mainland) and Drogio (an island close to the mainland, possibly Nova Scotia).

Or so it says in De I Commentarii del Viaggio, a 16th century account of their travels by Nicolo Zeno, one of their descendants. This latter-day Zeno claimed to have found a manuscript and a map, both made by his ancestors, in his proverbial attic. Nicolo the Younger had it published in 1558. At the time, it was generally believed to be a true account. A second version of the map was issued by fellow Venetian Giordano Ruscelli in 1561.

In 1569, Gerhard Mercator copied the Zeno map into his influential World Map. Abraham Ortelius did the same for his renowned map of the Northern Atlantic in 1573. In 1595, Mercator included Frisland (not to be confused with Friesland, which does exist on the North Sea coast of the Netherlands and Germany) in a separate inset on his 1595 map of the North Pole. Thus Frisland, and the other fanciful lands fabricated by the 16th century Zeno (most likely), came to be known as ‘fact’, and were copied by other cartographers, often with variations on the name such as Fixland, Freezeland or Frischlant. Only much later did it become clear they were imaginary.

But not before causing some real-world confusion for discoverers such as Martin Frobisher, who in 1576 reported seeing a ‘high and rugged land’, which according to Mercator’s map ought to be Frisland. Frobisher claimed Frisland for England, not realizing he probably saw the coast of Greenland.  The confusion continued when he explored Baffin Island – which Frobisher thought was Greenland. Accordingly, Frobisher’s Strait (which in fact is a bay) for many years was situated at the tip of Greenland instead of Baffin Island. Cartographers continued to include Frisland on maps of the North Atlantic as late as the 18th century. As imaginary places go, Frisland had quite some staying power – probably because it was confused with Greenland and/or the Faroer Islands.The question remains: who did the confusing? The older Zenos, their descendant, later cartographers and explorers? Or some of them? Or all of them?


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on September 08, 2009, 11:23:56 pm
Beyond the shadow of a doubt
by Niven Sinclair

 

Introduction
I would like to turn to the "proofs" of the Sinclair voyage of 1398 to North America. Fourteen points will be offered, each based upon fact which I have carefully researched.

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Contingency plans
Before Henry Sinclair left on his voyage, he made certain dispositions of his lands to his brothers, John and David. He assigned the lands of Pentland to his brother John, whilst transferring the lands of Auchdale and Newburgh in Aberdeenshire to David.

To his eldest daughter, Elizabeth, who married Sir John Drummond of Cargill, he left his lands in Norway, provided he died without a male heir. This would suggest that he took his three sons with him on the voyage, as they were alive at the time and of an age when they would have been considered able to accompany a military or naval force.

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The Zeno Map
A map of the North Atlantic was drawn up by the Zeno brothers. In 1393, Henry Sinclair sent Nicolo Zeno to carry out a survey of Greenland. Nicolo returned to Orkney in 1395, where he died from prolonged exposure to the Arctic weather. He was succeeded as Henry's admiral by his brother, Antonio Zeno.

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Accuracy attested & confirmed
For the next several centuries, the Zeno Map was used by such well-known cartographers as Ruscelli (1561), Mercator (1569) and Ortelius (1574). And even subsequent maps made by Hondius (1597), Danckwertz, Corneille, and Tevernier (1628), and Bellini (1765) were, save for the orientation, inferior to the Zeno map. The authority for this statement is from Professor Hobbs of Michigan University.

The so-called Zeno Map had been compared by Professor Hapgood to an aerial survey of Greenland, carried out recently by the United States Air Force. Professor Hapgood found 37 points of identity with the Zeno Map. This is an incredible degree of accuracy.

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The Zeno Narrative
In the Words of Professor Taylor of London University, "The authenticity of the Zeno account has been challenged, but on very flimsy grounds. It appears to the present writer (Prof. Taylor) that it would be quite out of the question for any author to invent a story which in every detail reflects fact about which it would be quite impossible for him to have been aware. Such is the story of Markland, which Antonio Zeno, then in the Faeroes, sent back to his brother Carlo in Venice and which a descendant edited and published in 1558. The later Zeno was personally known to Ramusio, the great authority of his day on voyages and discoveries, whom he could have hardly have deceived."

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Zeno had never been to Rosslyn
The Zeno Narrative speaks of the "spring of pitch" which the reconnaissance party of 100 soldiers found at Stellarton and which they reported back to Prince Henry at Guysborough, both places in Nova Scotia. On hearing this, Prince Henry considered it was "good omen" because there was a similar "spring of pitch" at his home at Rosslyn in Scotland. The "pitch" had been used as medicine against the Black Death. It is reputed to have saved the Sinclairs from the scourges of that particular plague, so much so that they erected a shrine over its site.

Now this story is faithfully recounted in the Zeno Narrative, although Antonio Zeno had never been to Rosslyn. In other words, he could only have heard of the "spring of pitch" of Rosslyn from Henry as they both stood listening to the report of the returning soldiers in Nova Scotia.

Incidentally, the number of men Henry sent out was 100. Those of us who have been in the army will know that if you can afford to send out a reconnaissance party of this size, the base camp must have comprised many times that number.

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My personal inspection
I have visited all these places where Prince Henry is understood to have visited. You could too. If I had to describe the places visited, my description would have been almost identical to the words used in the Zeno Narrative.

http://www.clansinclaircanada.ca/articles/beyond.htm#map


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Qoais on September 09, 2009, 09:36:33 am
Here's a site with a bit about the Zeno Narrative

http://mastermason.com/WallerLodge/zeno.htm


Title: Re: Ancient Maps
Post by: Annunaki on September 25, 2010, 02:50:51 am
Excellent topic!