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Ancient Mediterranean Cultures => Minoan Crete => Topic started by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:00:19 am



Title: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:00:19 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Theseus_Minotaur_Mosaic.jpg)

A Roman mosaic picturing Theseus and the Minotaur. From Rhaetia, Switzerland.

In Greek mythology, the Labyrinth (Gk. λαβύρινθος labyrinthos) was an elaborate structure constructed for King Minos of Crete and designed by the legendary artificer Daedalus to hold the Minotaur, a creature that was half man and half bull and which was eventually killed by the Athenian hero Theseus. Daedalus had made the Labyrinth so cunningly that he himself could barely escape it after he built it.[1] Theseus was aided by Ariadne, who provided him with a fateful thread, literally the "clew," or "clue," to wind his way back again.

The term labyrinth is often used interchangeably with maze, but modern scholars of the subject use a stricter definition. For them, a maze is a tour puzzle in the form of a complex branching passage with choices of path and direction; while a single-path ("unicursal") labyrinth has only a single Eulerian path to the center. A labyrinth has an unambiguous through-route to the center and back and is not designed to be difficult to navigate.

This unicursal design was wide-spread in artistic depictions of the Minotaur's Labyrinth even though both logic and literary descriptions of it make it clear that the Minotaur was trapped in a multicursal maze.

A labyrinth can be represented both symbolically and/or physically. Symbolically it is represented in art or designs on pottery, as body art, etched on walls of caves, etc. Physical representations are common throughout the world, and are generally constructed on the ground so they may be walked along from entry point to center and back again. They have historically been used in both group ritual and for private meditation.



Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:04:47 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/Chakravyuha.svg/200px-Chakravyuha.svg.png)

Chakravyuha, a threefold seed pattern with a spiral at the centre, one of the troop formations employed at the battle of Kurukshetra, as recounted in the Mahabharata epic.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1c/Labyrinth_tattoo_DSC04809_ms.jpg)

I'itoi, the "Man in the Maze", a popular design in Native American basketry


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:05:39 am
Ancient labyrinths

Pliny's Natural History mentions four ancient labyrinths: the Cretan labyrinth, an "Egyptian labyrinth", a "Lemnian labyrinth" and an "Italian labyrinth".

Labyrinth is a word of pre-Greek ("Pelasgian") origin absorbed by classical Greek, and is perhaps related to Lydian labrys ("double-edged axe," symbol of royal power, which fits with the theory that the labyrinth was originally the royal Minoan palace on Crete and meant "palace of the double-axe), with -inthos connoting "place" (as in "Corinth"). The complex palace of Knossos in Crete is usually implicated, though the actual dancing-ground, depicted in frescoed patterns at Knossos, has not been found. Something was being shown to visitors as a labyrinth at Knossos in the 1st century AD (Philostratos, De vita Apollonii Tyanei iv.34, noted in Kerenyi, p 101 n. 171)

Greek mythology did not recall, however, that in Crete there was a Lady who presided over the Labyrinth. A tablet inscribed in Linear B found at Knossos records a gift "to all the gods honey; to the mistress of the labyrinth honey." All the gods together receive as much honey as the Mistress of the Labyrinth alone. "She must have been a Great Goddess", Kerenyi observes (Kerenyi 1976 p 91).

That the Cretan labyrinth had been a dancing-ground and was made for Ariadne rather than for Minos was remembered by Homer in Iliad xviii.590–593 where, in the pattern that Hephaestus inscribed on Achilles' shield, one incident pictured was a dancing-ground "like the one that Daedalus designed in the spacious town of Knossos for Ariadne of the lovely locks". Even the labyrinth dance was depicted on the shield, where "youths and marriageable maidens were dancing on it with their hands on one another's wrists... circling as smoothly on their accomplished feet as the wheel of a potter...and there they ran in lines to meet each other."

The labyrinth is the referent in the familiar Greek patterns of the endlessly running meander, to give the "Greek key" its common modern name. In the 3rd century BCE coins from Knossos were still struck with the labyrinth symbol. The predominant labyrinth form during this period is the simple 7-circuit style known as the classical labyrinth.

The term labyrinth came to be applied to any unicursal maze, whether of a particular circular shape (illustration) or rendered as square. At the center, a decisive turn brought one out again. In the Socratic dialogue that Plato produced as Euthydemus, Socrates describes the labyrinthine line of a logical argument:

“ Then it seemed like falling into a labyrinth: we thought we were at the finish, but our way bent round and we found ourselves as it were back at the beginning, and just as far from that which we were seeking at first.
Thus the present-day notion of a labyrinth as a place where one can lose [his] way must be set aside. It is a confusing path, hard to follow without a thread, but, provided [the traverser] is not devoured at the midpoint, it leads surely, despite twists and turns, back to the beginning. (Kerenyi, p. 91.)
 


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:06:11 am
Herodotus' "Egyptian labyrinth"

Even more generally, "labyrinth" might be applied to any extremely complicated maze-like structure. Herodotus, in Book II of his Histories, describes as a "labyrinth" a building complex in Egypt, "near the place called the City of Crocodiles," that he considered to surpass the pyramids in its astonishing ambition:

“ It has twelve covered courts—six in a row facing north, six south—the gates of the one range exactly fronting the gates of the other. Inside, the building is of two storeys and contains three thousand rooms, of which half are underground, and the other half directly above them. I was taken through the rooms in the upper storey, so what I shall say of them is from my own observation, but the underground ones I can speak of only from report, because the Egyptians in charge refused to let me see them, as they contain the tombs of the kings who built the labyrinth, and also the tombs of the sacred crocodiles. The upper rooms, on the contrary, I did actually see, and it is hard to believe that they are the work of men; the baffling and intricate passages from room to room and from court to court were an endless wonder to me, as we passed from a courtyard into rooms, from rooms into galleries, from galleries into more rooms and thence into yet more courtyards. The roof of every chamber, courtyard, and gallery is, like the walls, of stone. The walls are covered with carved figures, and each court is exquisitely built of white marble and surrounded by a colonnade.


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:06:47 am
Pliny's "Lemnian labyrinth"

Pliny's Natural History (36.90) lists the legendary Smilis, reputed to be a contemporary of Daedalus, together with the historical mid sixth-century BCE architects and sculptors Rhoikos and Theodoros as two of the makers of the "Lemnian labyrinth", which Andrew Stewart (One Hundred Greek Sculptors: Their Careers and Extant Works, "Smilis") regards as "evidently a misunderstanding of the Samian temple's location en limnais, 'in the marsh'".



Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:07:31 am
Pliny's "Italian labyrinth"

According to Pliny, the tomb of the great Etruscan general Lars Porsena contained an underground maze. Pliny's description of the exposed portion of the tomb is intractable; Pliny, it seems clear, had not observed this structure himself, but is quoting the historian and Roman antiquarian Varro.


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:08:15 am
Ancient labyrinths outside Europe

At about the same time as the appearance of the Greek labyrinth, a topologically identical pattern appeared in Native American culture, the Tohono O'odham labyrinth which features I'itoi, the "Man in the Maze". The Tonoho O'odham pattern has two distinct differences from the Greek: it is radial in design, and the entrance is at the top, where traditional Greek labyrinths have the entrance at the bottom (see below).

A prehistoric petroglyph on a riverbank in Goa shows the same pattern and has been dated to circa 2500 BCE. Other examples have been found among cave art in northern India and on a dolmen shrine in the Nilgiri Mountains, but are difficult to date accurately. Early labyrinths in India all follow the Classical pattern; some have been described as plans of forts or cities [1]. Labyrinths appear in Indian manuscripts and Tantric texts from the 17th century onward. They are often called "Chakravyuha" in reference to an impregnable battle formation described in the ancient Mahabharata epic.


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:08:56 am
Labyrinth as pattern

In antiquity the less complicated labyrinth pattern familiar from medieval examples was already developed. In Roman floor mosaics the simple classical labyrinth is framed in the meander border pattern, squared off as the medium requires, but still recognisable. Often an image of a bull-man, a minotaur, appears in the centre of these mosaic labyrinths. Roman meander patterns gradually developed in complexity towards the fourfold shape that is now familiarly known as the medieval form. The labyrinth retains its connection with death and a triumphant return: at Hadrumentum in North Africa (now Sousse), a Roman family tomb has a fourfold labyrinth mosaic floor, with a dying Minotaur in the center and a mosaic inscription: HICINCLUSUS.VITAMPERDIT "Enclosed here, he loses life" (Kerenyi, fig.31).


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:29:07 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/NAMA_Tablette_1287.jpg)

Earliest recovered labyrinth, incised on a clay tablet from Pylos


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:30:10 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Con%C3%ADmbriga_minotauro.jpg)

Minotaur in the Labyrinth, a Roman mosaic at Conímbriga, Portugal


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:31:08 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Labyrinth_Lucca.jpg)

Wall maze in Lucca Cathedral, Italy (probably medieval)


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:32:12 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8c/Rocky_Valley_labyrinth_Tintagel.jpg/800px-Rocky_Valley_labyrinth_Tintagel.jpg)

Seven ring classical labyrinth of unknown age in Rocky Valley near Tintagel, Cornwall, UK


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:33:07 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Trojaburg_%28Scandinavian_stone_labyrinth%29.jpg)

A Scandinavian "Trojaburg" ("Troy Town") seven ring classical labyrinth outlined with stones


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:34:11 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Sch%C3%B6nbusch4.jpg)

Public hedge maze in the "English Garden" at Schönbusch Park, Aschaffenburg, Germany


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:35:21 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Dalby_City_of_Troy_turf_maze.jpg/800px-Dalby_City_of_Troy_turf_maze.jpg)

A small turf maze near Dalby, North Yorkshire, UK


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:36:37 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/Wing_Maze.jpg/800px-Wing_Maze.jpg)

A small turf maze near Dalby, North Yorkshire, UK


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:37:56 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Minotaurus.gif)

The Minotaur at the center of the labyrinth, depicted on an ancient gem


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:38:48 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/BCmemoriallabyrinth.jpg)

9/11 memorial labyrinth, Boston College, USA


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:39:35 am
Medieval labyrinths and "turf mazes"

The full flowering of the medieval labyrinth design came about during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries with the grand pavement labyrinths of the gothic cathedrals, most notably Chartres and Amiens in Northern France and the Duomo di Siena in Tuscany. It is this version of the design that is thought to be the inspiration for the many secular turf mazes in the UK, such as survive at Wing, Rutland, Hilton, Cambridgeshire, Alkborough (North Lincolnshire), and at Saffron Walden in Essex.

Over the same period some 500 or more non-ecclesiastical labyrinths were constructed in Scandinavia. These labyrinths, generally in coastal areas, are marked out with stones most often in the simple classical form. They often have names which translate as "Troy Town". They are thought to have been constructed by early fishing communities, to trap malevolent trolls/winds in the labyrinth's coils in order to ensure a safe fishing expedition. There are also stone labyrinths on the Isles of Scilly, although none of them is known to date back as far as the Scandinavian ones.

There are remarkable examples of the labyrinth shape from a whole range of ancient and disparate cultures. The symbol has appeared in all its forms and media (petroglyphs, classic-form, medieval-form, pavement, turf and basketry) at some time, throughout most parts of the world, from Java, Native North and South America, Australia, India and Nepal.


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:40:58 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/LabyrinthGraceCathedral.jpg/800px-LabyrinthGraceCathedral.jpg)

The Labyrinth on the floor of Grace Cathedral


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:42:02 am
Modern labyrinths

In recent years, there has been a resurgence of interest in the labyrinth symbol, which has inspired a revival in labyrinth building, notably at Willen Park, Milton Keynes; Grace Cathedral, San Francisco; Tapton Park, Chesterfield; and the Labyrinth in Shed 16 in the Old Port of Montreal.

Countless computer games depict mazes and labyrinths.

On bobsled, luge, and skeleton tracks, a labyrinth is where there are three to four curves in succession without a straight line in between any of the turns.



Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:42:46 am
Modern takes on Greek labyrinth

In modern imagery, the labyrinth is often confused with the maze, in which one may become lost.

The myth of the labyrinth has in recent times transformed into a stage play by Ilinka Crvenkovska which explores notions of a man's ability to control his own fate. Theseus in an act of suicide is killed by the Minotaur, who is himself killed by the horrified townspeople.

The Argentinian writer Jorge Luis Borges was entranced with the idea of the labyrinth, and used it extensively throughout his short stories. His modern literary use of the labyrinth has inspired a great many other authors in their own works (e.g. Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose, Mark Z. Danielewski's House of Leaves). Additionally, Roger Zelazny's fantasy series The Chronicles of Amber features a labyrinth, called the Pattern, which grants those who walk it the power to move between parallel worlds.

The labyrinth is important subject in contemporary fine art too. Some remarkable examples from the 20th century: Piet Mondrian: Dam and Ocean (1915), Joan Miro: Labirynth (1923), Pablo Picasso: Minotauromachia (1935), M.C. Escher: Relativity (1953), Friedensreich Hundertwasser: Labyrinth (1957), Jean Dubuffet: Logological Cabinet (1970), Richard Long: Connemara sculpture (1971), Joe Tilson: Earth Maze (1975), Richard Fleischner: Chain Link Maze (1978), István Orosz: Atlantis Anamorphosis (2000), Dmitry Rakov: Labyrinth (2003):


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:43:57 am
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Labyrinth_vor_St._Lambertus%2C_Mingolsheim.JPG/800px-Labyrinth_vor_St._Lambertus%2C_Mingolsheim.JPG)

Labyrinth at St. Lambertus, Mingolsheim, Germany


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 17, 2007, 12:45:01 am
Cultural meanings

Prehistoric labyrinths are believed to have served either as traps for malevolent spirits or as defined paths for ritual dances. During Medieval times, the labyrinth symbolized a hard path to the God with a clearly defined center (God) and one entrance (birth). Labyrinths can be thought of as symbolic forms of pilgrimage; people can walk the path, ascending towards salvation or enlightenment. Many people simply could not afford to travel to holy sites and lands, so the use of labyrinths and prayer substituted that need. Later, the religious significance of labyrinths faded and they were used primarily for entertainment, although recently their spiritual aspect has seen a resurgence.

Many newly-made labyrinths exist today, in churches and parks. Labyrinths are used by many modern mystics to help the user achieve a contemplative state. By walking amongst the turnings, the user loses track of direction and of the outside world, and thus quiets the mind. The result is a relaxed mental attitude, free of internal dialog. This is a form of meditation. Many people believe that meditation has health benefits as well as spiritual benefits. The Labyrinth Society provides a locator for modern labyrinths in North America.


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: rockessence on July 17, 2007, 03:02:07 pm
Gwen,

RE: "That the Cretan labyrinth had been a dancing-ground and was made for Ariadne rather than for Minos was remembered by Homer in Iliad xviii.590–593 where, in the pattern that Hephaestus inscribed on Achilles' shield, one incident pictured was a dancing-ground "like the one that Daedalus designed in the spacious town of Knossos for Ariadne of the lovely locks". Even the labyrinth dance was depicted on the shield, where "youths and marriageable maidens were dancing on it with their hands on one another's wrists... circling as smoothly on their accomplished feet as the wheel of a potter...and there they ran in lines to meet each other."

The Bock saga material clearly describes the various labyrinth's many uses....some for male and some for female ritual testing to prepare for choosing a mate for the midsummer night's ceremonial copulation to bring in the next year's births, and various other purposes.

www.bocksaga.de

Not surprising that Ariadne, as a royal female would have been designated as the Priestess of a labyrinth....but there would have been others as well.

Homer was writing of a time and place far removed from the place the saga tells of, so there would have been differences for sure...

If Vinci is correct, then the Crete that Homer wrote of was on the Baltic Sea, and the Mediterranean Crete was a "copy" of the original topography/location.


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 24, 2007, 01:34:07 pm
Hi Rockessence,

The Bock saga material clearly describes the various labyrinth's many uses....some for male and some for female ritual testing to prepare for choosing a mate for the midsummer night's ceremonial copulation to bring in the next year's births, and various other purposes.

Do you have the Bock Saga passage this comes from?  I think it would be worth it to see the ritual, and I don't know which part of the saga to look for it in.

Gwen


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: rockessence on July 24, 2007, 02:31:26 pm
 From the Archive of Leo Nygren  www.bocksaga.de

 THE  ”JATULINTARHA” LABYRINTH

 THE LABYRINTH SHOWN HERE IS PLENTIFULLY BEING SEEN IN FINLAND, WHERE IT'S USE WAS PERHAPS MOST AND LATEST PRACTICED, ALL THE WAY FROM THE BOTTOM OF GULF OF FINLAND TO THE END OF GULF OF BOTHNIA, ALONG THE SHORELINE, AND AT ISLANDS TOO.
 IT WAS MADE OF ROUND STONES ABOUT THE SIZE OF FOOTBALL, THE DIAMETER OF THE LABYRINTH BEING FROM TEN METERS TO 25 METERS, ON SOME FLAT SPOT OF GROUND.
 IN FINLAND IT WAS KNOWN WITH MANY NAMES; JATULIN TARHA (JATULIS YARD), NUNNATARHA (NUNS YARD), PIETARIN LEIKKI (PETER'S PLAY), NEITOTANSSI ( GIRL'S DANCE), JERUSALEM, TROIJA (TROY), JERIKOTOWN, AND IN ”ROOT” JUNGFRU'S DANCE AND TROIJA LEK (PLAY) .  (JATULIS, ”GIANTS”, CANNOT BE EXPLAINED IN ENGLISH, ”LEK” MEANS ”SPAWN”, TO MULTIPLY.)
 IN AMERICAS IT WAS KNOWN BY INDIANS WITH THE NAME ”MOTHER EARTH”.
 THOSE NAMES LET US TO SUPPOSE THAT IT WAS USED SOLELY FOR CHECKING THE CANDIDATES FOR MOTHER- AND FATHERHOOD, IN A FERTILITY RITE.

 THE CANDIDATES HAD TO DANCE THROUGH IT, STAYING BETWEEN LINES, PASSING THE JUDGES SEVEN TIMES, WOMEN DANCING BELLYDANCE NAKED SO THAT THE JUDGES SAW THAT THEIR PELVIS WAS SWINGING FREELY, THEIR BELLY MUCLES HAD TO BE WELL FORMED TO GUARANTEE EASY DELIVERY AND BREASTS HAD TO SHOW THE NIPPLE TO BE EASILY SUCKED BY THE BABY. THERE WERE THREE WOMEN TO JUDGE THEM, NO MEN WERE ALLOWED TO SEE IT.

 MEN WHO HAD REACHED THE ADULT AGE OF 21 DANCED THE SOCALLED COSSAC DANCE, RIPASKA IN FINNISH, WHICH REQUIRES LOT OF STAMINA AS YOU ARE ALLMOST IN A SITTING POSITION THROWING YOUR LEGS HIGH UP, HANDS KEPT  IN FRONT BY THE CHEST. THEY WERE ALSO NAKED SO THAT THEIR MANLY ORGANS WERE SHOWING TO MENJUDGES, AND WOMEN WERE NOT ALLOWED TO SEE IT.

 MANY OF THOSE NAMES SUGGESTS THAT THE LABYRINTH WAS JUST FOR THIS PURPOSE, AS THOSE WHO DID NOT MANAGE THIS TEST NEVER HAD THE CHANCE TO BE FATHERS OR MOTHERS, AS THE NAME ”NUNS YARD” SUGGESTS.
 BUT IT WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PARADISE-TIME IF THEY WERE TO GO WITHOUT ANY SEXUAL LIFE, NO, THOSE MEN WHO DIDN'T PASS THE TEST WERE DRINKING THEIR SPERM THEMSELVES OR OFFERING IT TO HIGHER CASTES TO BE DRINKED, AS IT HAS PLENTY OF ENERGY IN IT, IT IS THE SEED FOR HUMAN BEINGS ANYWAY, NOT TO BE WASTED,  MOST  VALUED THING IN THE WHOLE WORLD, IT WAS ”THE HOLY SPIRIT”, THE AMBROSIA.   
 ONE SET OF YOUNG MAN'S SPERM IS EQUIVALENT TO TWO BEEFS, TEN ORANGES, EIGHT EGGS  AND TWO LEMONS, AS HAS BEEN STUDIED IN SWEDEN. SAME TEST MADE IN ENGLAND GAVE BUT ”ONLY” SIX EGGS!

 ALSO WOMEN WHO WERE SELECTED TO BE MOTHERS, WERE TO ”DRINK” THE SPERM FROM THE MAN THEY HAD SELECTED AS THEIR PARTNERS, ONCE A DAY FOR THIRTY DAYS (THIS WAS THE HONEYMOON, HUN-I-MUN) BEFORE THEY WERE MATED AT MIDSUMMER NIGHT, TO BE AS ENERGETIC AS POSSIBLE, TO GUARANTEE A SUCCESFULL PREGNANCY AND DELIVERY AND, MOST AF ALL, A HEALTHY BABY.
  WOMEN WHO DIDN'T PASS THE TEST WERE OFFERING THEIR ”SAP” FROM THEIR **** ALSO TO THE WOMEN OF HIGHER CASTES, OR DRINKING IT THEMSELVES TOO. WE CAN SEE IN MANY OLD PAINTINGS WOMEN CARRYING A VASE WHERE THEY COLLECTED THE SAP, OR THEY HAD A SMALL CUP, A THIMBLE, HANGING AT THE NECK, FOR THE SAME PURPOSE.
 ALL WOMEN HAD TO ”PLAY” WITH THEIR CLITORISES REGULARLY TO KEEP THE MUCOUS MEMBRANE OF **** MOIST, TO ”PRODUCE” THE SAP, IN THAT WAY THEY WERE HEALTHIER TOO, THAT SEREMONY (C-RE-MUN-I) OF FOUR MEMBERS WAS TAUGHT TO THEM WHEN THEY WERE STILL YOUNG GIRLS, AT THE AGE OF SEVEN.
 IN THAT WAY ALL PEOPLE WERE HAPPY, IT WAS A PARADISE WAY OF LIVING!.

 ALL PEOPLE AT PARADISE-TIME WERE HEART-FRIENDS TO EACH OTHER, IN PAIRS, AND IN FINLAND AND SWEDEN WE HAVE THE THURSDAY FOR HEART FRIENDS, AS THURSDAY IS TOR'S-TAI IN FINNISH, TOR'S-DAG IN SWEDISH, (ENGLISH ”THOR'S DAY IS VERY CLOSE) AND TOR IS THE SEXUAL ORGAN OF BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, BUT AT THE UNDERSIDE OF THE HEAD OF MAN'S **** ONE CAN SEE THE REAL ”HEART” AS WE USE TO DRAW IT (CHECK IT), AT OUR CHEST WE HAVE ”ONLY” A PUMP FOR BLOOD.   

 THIS LABYRINTH IS BEING FOUND IN MANY PLACES, ALL SCANDINAVIA AND IN MANY EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, GREECE, NEAR EAST COUNTRIES, AT CRETE AND AT THE COINS OF ETRUSK'S AND CRETAN'S. AT CENTRAL AMERICA IT IS KNOWN BY MAYAS AND MOST PROPABLY BY MANY OTHER PEOPLE TOO.
 EVEN AT THE SHORES OF NORTHERN ICE SEA, AT KUOLA PENINSULA, IT IS BEING FOUND.
 AND IF YOU STUDY IT CLOSELY, IT'S SHAPE RESEMBLES THAT OF A CROS-SECTION  OF WOMAN'S HIP, WOMB AND ALL. 

 IT HAS BEEN SUGGESTED THAT THE FAMOUS LABYRINTH OF CRETE WHERE THE BEAST MINOTAUROS ROAMED, MENTIONED AT THE GREEK MYTHOLOGY WAS JUST THIS, PERHAPS UNDER GROUND. (MINO'STOR ??)

 THIS DANCE WAS BUT ONLY ONE OF THE SERIE OF TESTS THE FATHER AND MOTHER CANDIDATES HAD TO GO THROUGH TO BE ELIGIBLE FOR THE MOST IMPORTANT TASK THERE WAS FOR MANKIND, TO KEEP HUMAN POPULATION AS HEALTHY, BEAUTIFULL AND WISE AS POSSIBLE, BUT HOW ABOUT NOW  WHEN THIS IS NOT CONTROLLED AT ALL? 

 IT'S A PITY THAT MANY OF THESE WORDS OF BOCK SAGA THAT TELL ABOUT THE PHILOSOPHY OF VÄINÄMÖINEN  HAVE  ”HIDDEN” MEANINGS THAT CAN BE EXPLAINED ONLY BY USING THE ”ROT” (PRESENT SWEDISH) AND ”VAN” (PRESENT FINNISH) LANGUAGES, THE FIRST ONES.

 THIS ”JATULINTARHA SEREMONY” WAS TAKEN TO DELOS AT 1600 BZ BY THE TWO DAMSELS, ARGE AND OPIS, AS THE FIRST ”OLYMPIC GAME”.


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on July 29, 2007, 09:50:56 pm
Thanks for finding that for me, Rockessence. I had no idea that the ritual was so involved.  You have to love the ancients, they had absolutely no hang-ups, did they? The reason for the Minoan version of the labyrinth apparently has little to do with the one expressed in the Bock Saga.

Gwen


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: rockessence on July 29, 2007, 11:30:15 pm
Gwen,

Hang-ups weren't invented yet!

Quote: "The reason for the Minoan version of the labyrinth apparently has little to do with the one expressed in the Bock Saga."

Why should we believe that the "Minoan version" has ever been explained correctly??  Especially if the purposes were deeply sexual, the chances of getting a true interpretation coming down through the centuries is practially NIL!


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on August 09, 2007, 11:22:42 am
Hi Rockessence, the Minoan labyrinth may well not be interpreted correctly. We do know that it involved the bull, though, which is often also used as a symbol of fertility.  I may be wrong, but I didn't see it mentioned in the Bock myth of the labyrinth, did you?

Gwen


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: rockessence on August 09, 2007, 12:23:54 pm
Hi Gwen,

I assume that because the core of the Bock info may have pre-dated the human/cattle connection in the far north... or that the bock-buck-male principle was in the language from the beginning.... I know that Vinci says that the original Crete was where northern Poland is today (Homer NEVER identified Crete as an island), and that specific area still has a HUGE traditional connection to cattle, in fact, still using decorated cattle in traditional wedding processions.  In antique times this was still done in rural England!

So it may be not just the bull that was important.... The "Minoan" story is so huge in our learned mythology that we focus on the bull...It seems to me that pre-paternalism there may have been a more "separate but equal" focus....

The Bock story recognizes the NANNY goat as well as the BOCK.   Since both the cow and the bull have horns there may have been some confusion as to who is indicated in ancient picturing...They did not seem to mind picturing a ****.  In the Knossos bull-dancing depiction the **** is evident I think, but I don't think that scholars necessarily connect that with the minotaur story either.  Minos may have been a king in the NORTHERN Crete and the already ancient tale just migrated south with the population moving south to the Mediterranean Kriti and Knossos.  I don't think that anyone has found any indication that Minos was at Knossos, and they have certainly never located a labyrinth matching the story there.

Certainly the bull was symbolic of fertility...as was the Bock (male goat), Pan, the sword, serpent, and other items.   One would think upon opening a grave and finding a sword placed point upward on the body, that it meant this man was a great warrior... but in truth, it indicated a "breeder", one who's seed had fathered a community, maybe even a nation....


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on August 19, 2007, 12:14:58 am
Quote
The Bock story recognizes the NANNY goat as well as the BOCK.   Since both the cow and the bull have horns there may have been some confusion as to who is indicated in ancient picturing...

Hi Rockessence,

That is an interesting observation, but it sure doesn't apply to the Minoan frescoes of "bull-dancing."  Those are clearly bulls!  Likewise, the cave paintings, bull sculptures, and the bull in mythology.  I'm sure you saw my "Cult of the Bull" thread, which offers very real examples of actual bull worship throughout the Med. Likewise, the Greeks certainly knew the difference between the goat and the bull, the horns of a bull certainly are different than those of a bull.

I like your method of tearing down archaeology to it's core and trying to decide how we knew what, when, but I think we have enough circumstantial evidence that the legend of Minos and Crete are linked.  It all seems to break down to how big was the world of the Greeks and just what it included.

Anyway, if, like Troy, you think the legend of Minos was elsewhere, did you have a particular place in mind, and what do you have to support that idea?

Gwen


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: rockessence on August 19, 2007, 02:00:02 am
Hi Gwen,

Yes, as I mentioned above: "In the Knossos bull-dancing depiction the **** is evident I think"

RE: where would the "elsewhere" Minos be...Felice Vinci suggested in his "Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales" that the original Crete was in the Pomeranian region (Homer never identified Crete as an island) in the region of the Vistula River, one of the main links to the vast river-system which were the north-south highways in the most ancient times. 

Minos and Crete are certainly linked as you say, but is the story of Minos possibly from before the occupation of Mediterranean Crete?   After all there is absolutely NO physical evidence of Minos in Mediterranean Crete, only popular myth.

Hey, get the book, you'll love it!


Title: Re: Labyrinths
Post by: Gwen Parker on September 01, 2007, 12:06:52 pm
Hi Rockessence,

Well, of course there is no direct evdence because Minos (like Theseus) was a mythological king, not a real one.  The reason why the residents of Crete are called "the Minoans" is cause the bull leaping frescoes, the fact that they were an advanced civilization and they are close to Greece. It's a "circumstantial" connection.  I don't see how the evidence is any stronger in the Pomeranian region! 

This differs from Troy, of course, which was a real place, whereas the Trojan War (since there is no actual evidence for the Trojan War of the Illiad) it is still considered to be a myth - for the time being, at least.

I have actually read a lot of what has been posted by Felice Vinci, I try and have an open mind so my opinion would be that more evidence is needed to support his conclusions.

Gwen