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Atlantis => Atlantis: Theories & Speculation => Topic started by: Doug Fisher on May 16, 2009, 05:59:35 pm



Title: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on May 16, 2009, 05:59:35 pm
Hello all,

I have written an article, Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars (http://www.atlantismaps.com/chapter_7.html), which proposes a new theory based solely on Plato's geographical specifications for Atlantis. Plato set forth a complex and very specific array of geographical features comprising alignments, relative positioning and dimensions, which limits the site for Atlantis to only one possible location: South America and Argentina's Mesopotamian Plain.

(http://www.atlantismaps.com/Ch7_images/img_06.jpg)

Not only is Argentina's Mesopotamian Plain the only sizable rectangular plain in the world defined by waterways on all four sides, which is in accordance with Plato's description, its perimeter is only 50 miles off of Plato's stated 1,150-miles, or 10,000 stadia. Further, the plain lies in the center of the continent, is oriented with its narrower width extending from the coast inland, is surrounded by mountains on three sides, but open toward the south, and lies within 14.5 miles of the sea, all per Plato's specifications.

Here's a more complete list of geographical specifications this theory meets which can also be found on my website along with much more detail and further insights:
  • A continent sized island (South American 'nesos')
  • Opposite the Pillars of Hercules (The Strait of Gibraltar) and
  • Located in the Atlantic Ocean with
  • Associated islands (the Caribbean Islands)
  • Forming a distinct path to a continent (North America) at the opposite end.
  • Having a lofty precipitous coastline (South America's Brazilian Highlands) transitioning to
  • A flat even rectangular plain (Argentina's Mesopotamian Plain)
  • Located at the center of the island (center of South American 'nesos')
  • Within 14.5-miles of the sea that is
  • Delineated on all four sides by channels of water (the Parana and Uruguay rivers) with
  • A perimeter of approximately 10,000 stadia (10,455 stadia or 1,200 miles actual. Only 50 miles longer than the specified 10,000 stadia or 1,150 miles.) and
  • Oriented with its narrower width extending from the coast inland, and also having
  • A climate conducive to biannual harvests.
  • Pocketed in by mountains to the west (Andes), north, and east (Brazilian Highlands), but open toward the sea in the south with
  • River ways from the surrounding mountain ranges feeding the rivers that flow around the plain, converge, and then empty into the sea in the south. (Rio Pilcomayo, Rio Bermejo, Rio Salado and Rio Dulce flowing down from the Andes in the west. The Parana and Uruguay Rivers dropping down onto the plain from the Brazilian Highlands in the north and the Rio Ibicui, Rio Arapey Grande, and Rio Queguay sourced from smaller mountains in the east, to name just a few.)

-Doug


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Morrison on May 17, 2009, 12:28:05 am
Hi Doug, and welcome to the forum. I couldn't agree more! In fact, my own research parrallels yours and it seems both were preceded by Jim Allen, the best modern day proponent on the theory.

Here is a link to my work and his:

http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,60.0.html

Have you got a space for the capital city yet?


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on May 17, 2009, 01:58:14 am
Hello Morrison,

Regarding the capital city, in the Parana Delta there is a unique circular landform located at the city's specified 7.25 miles between the plain and the sea which also happens to have a diameter matching Plato's specifications. From the  linked article (http://www.atlantismaps.com/chapter_7.html):

  • (http://www.atlantismaps.com/Ch7_images/img_15.jpg)
    Figure 15 - Lines A, B, and C represent 14.5-mile channels extending between the plain and the sea
    with a center point at 7.25 miles representing the center point of the island city. Lines A and C
    represent extreme channel placements where the island city would lie closest to the Parana and
    the confluence of the Parana and Uruguay rivers.  Line B aligns the channel so that the center
    point is equidistant from the Mesopotamian plain and the sea. Multiple other channel placements
    would find the city's center located between these three points along or near arc ABC. Equidistant
    point B mysteriously sits atop a circular landform while line B itself lies near channels of similar
    overall length leading from the plain to the sea.



  • (http://www.atlantismaps.com/Ch7_images/img_16.jpg)
    Figure 16 -  Satellite image (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=-33.892362,-58.552322&spn=0.202626,0.317574&t=k&z=12) of the circular landform in the Parana Delta (top). Same image (below)
    with a 2.50-mile dimension set with  Google Earth™ to establish scale. The yellow overlain
    rings conform to the concentric rings of Atlantis and have been scaled to the image. While
    the circular landform does not appear to have any demarcations suggesting the existence of
    inner zones, the outside diameter of Atlantis’ outermost land zone at 2.41 miles (21 stadia) is
    an extraordinarily close match with this Parana Delta landform. The waterway surrounding the
    landform also conforms closely to Atlantis’ outer zone of water, which was to have had an
    outside diameter of 3.10 miles (27 stadia).

The delta location would be susceptible to liquefaction during a quake, which could explain why the warlike men are described as having "sank into the earth" and not the sea.

Quote
There occurred violent earthquakes and floods; in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. - (Timaeus)

-Doug


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Qoais on May 17, 2009, 09:40:48 am
Hi Guys
Morrison I might have asked you this before, but remember when Plato talked about the harbour being full of ships and how all the other countries sent goods to Atlantis?  In this scenario, where would be all these other countries that were doing trade with Atlantis?


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Tina Walter on May 18, 2009, 07:23:12 am
That's a major drawback of the South American theory, Qoais.  Plato describes a 5 1/2 mile channel from the ocean to the capital city and there is no such waterway leading from the Atlantic to any of the proposes Atlantis capitals in South America. 

Jim Allen, for instance, proposes the capital to be near the Atiplano, and yes, the Amazon eventually leads there, but only after a hundred mile trek.


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on May 18, 2009, 07:38:02 pm
That's a major drawback of the South American theory, Qoais.  Plato describes a 5 1/2 mile channel from the ocean to the capital city and there is no such waterway leading from the Atlantic to any of the proposes Atlantis capitals in South America. 

Jim Allen, for instance, proposes the capital to be near the Atiplano, and yes, the Amazon eventually leads there, but only after a hundred mile trek.

Hi Tina,

This thread pertains to a new theory which does place the circular city at 5 1/2 miles from the sea (see Figures 15 and 16 above).

I am not supporting the Atliplano claim, but introducing a new plain, Argentina's Mesopotamian Plain. You will find that it is a 10,000-stadia rectangular plain defined on all sides by waterways per Plato's description. Also check the list of specifications it meets in the original post.

I would very much like to have your opinion on this new site and critique where it falls short of Plato's geographical specifications.

Thanks,
Doug


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Qoais on May 18, 2009, 10:32:35 pm
But WHO were all these other countries doing trade with her? that filled her harbours with "Triremes"? that brougt all kinds of goods to her?


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Mario Dantas on May 19, 2009, 10:47:25 am
(http://www.atlantismaps.com/Ch7_images/img_02L.jpg)


Dear Doug Fisher,

Indeed the two maps are very similar! South America, as portrayed by Ortelius (in relation to Kircher's map), is more identical than anything... i have read your well explained theory on your site and can only congratulate you for the fine work accomplished.

Nevertheless, there are a few questions on my mind that i would like to ask:


- How do you explain the passage in Critias relating to the region of Gades within a South American Atlantis "universe"?
Quote
To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus


- How do you explain (from a "motionless" point of view) the fact that North America is in fact in front of Gibraltar and not the South American Continent?


Quote
But all the preceding points are only valid if we overlook one very glaring issue: South America is not actually an island.

- On the contrary, in my opinion, the huge distance between South America and the Mediterrenean is perhaps the most obvious element against your theory, how could such long distance be feasible from a Mediterrenean or anywhere else location? (it took me a week to travel from Lisbon to Cape Verde nonstop on a cargo ship)
Quote
For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries,



- How do you explain the non existence of elephants in South America?

- Do you know why is there another Ortelius map with considerable differences regarding South America's shape?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/OrteliusWorldMap.jpeg


Although i have different ideas, i once more reiterate my astonishment concerning your theory, it really has a strong verisimilitude with Plato's Atlantis, even disregarding Kircher's map !!!

Regards,
Mario Dantas


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on May 20, 2009, 01:11:19 am
Hi Mario,

Thanks for the positive feedback.

Quote
- How do you explain the passage in Critias relating to the region of Gades within a South American Atlantis "universe"?
- How do you explain (from a "motionless" point of view) the fact that North America is in fact in front of Gibraltar and not the South American Continent?

I did attempt to meet as many of Plato's, or more accurately, Solon's specifications as was possible, especially those that would appear to be more reliable. For example, specifications pertaining to the geography of Atlantis—specific measurements of the plain, its central placement on the island, and the arrangement of the surrounding mountains—these are aspects of the island that Solon would have had to take at face value and pass along virtually verbatim. Having no previous knowledge of Atlantis he would have had to trust his Egyptian source and therefore these details would have been passed along intact and proven fairly reliable.

The island's position in relation to the Pillars of Hercules and the Mediterranean is a slightly different matter as its placement had to fit within the limits of Solon's preconceived view of the world, and these details may not prove too reliable considering that this was how Solon apparently envisioned the world:

(http://www.atlantismaps.com/Ch7_images/img_11.gif)

Here’s an example that should help better illustrate this point:
  • You're renting a small cabin with a very small fenced-in yard in the back and a reliable neighbor calls to inform you that there is an elephant in your backyard. He also tells you that it's 12-feet tall, weighs about 10 tons and has only one tusk.

    You call animal control to report the intruder and trusting your neighbor you report it as 12-feet tall, 10-tons and missing one tusk. This portion is relayed accurately as you have to rely solely on your neighbor's description since you are obviously too horrified to look outside.

    Animal control then asks its location and knowing the size of your very small yard you hysterically reply that he is just outside your back door. The only problem is, you're renting the cabin and do not realize that the property actually extends well beyond the fenced-in area. Your preconception of the backyard causes you to erroneously relate the elephant’s location.

Likewise, if the above image represented your view of the world—a centralized island composed of Europe, Asia and Africa completely surrounded by Oceanus which in turn is surrounded by a ring of mountains—and someone informed you that there was an island the size of Asia and Africa combined located west of the Mediterranean, this limited world view would likely leave you locating Atlantis, or a good portion of it, directly in front of the Pillars of Hercules much as Solon apparently did.

Quote
- On the contrary, in my opinion, the huge distance between South America and the Mediterrenean is perhaps the most obvious element against your theory, how could such long distance be feasible from a Mediterrenean or anywhere else location? (it took me a week to travel from Lisbon to Cape Verde nonstop on a cargo ship)

"For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries."

Consider the great distances sailed for the spice trade. Those trips were a bit longer than a week and a voyage from the Mediterranean to South America is a relatively short distance to travel for riches when compared to traveling from the Mediterranean to the Moluccas Islands in the Pacific.

Quote
- How do you explain the non existence of elephants in South America?

Do we have to accept all portions of the account as fact, or is it possible to consider that some portions may have been slightly embellished:

Quote
Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows.....(Critias)

Best regards,
Doug


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Mario Dantas on May 20, 2009, 11:42:23 am


Dear Doug Fisher,

I wonder if you have given any thought to the fact that South America seem to have been linked to New Zealand and Australia... In my theory i propose that after Pangaea break-up Africa and the South American Continents were distantly separated and suddenly got together again when the event of Atlantis sinking occurred (Drake Passage (South Argentina) could be the proof of a violent "near collision" with an asteroid or small Planet although it is believed to have happened 41 millions of years)


(http://www.mathworks.com/access/helpdesk/help/toolbox/map/worldmap-geoid.gif)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Drake_Passage_-_Lambert_Azimuthal_projection.png)

I guess you (as well as Morrison or Jim Allen) could be right about Atlantis being South America. Solon could have made mistakes (as i believe he did) when transcribing the tale firstly heard through priest Sonchis. I believe some of the aspects of the tale, since they pertain to mythology and, furthermore, being incomplete, are indeed difficult or maybe impossible to be proven in reality.

One has to believe also that the general research towards the finding of Atlantis is more important than our own single investigations and that there will be (supposedly) only one correct answer among several others, as painful as it might be...

Our understanding of Atlantis has to coexist with many "theories" about Plato's tale as they are true possibilities.


regards,
Mario Dantas





Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: BlueHue on May 20, 2009, 11:55:40 am
Dear  DOUGH  FISHER,

MARVELLOUS GRAPHICS ! but would you care to comment on my Blue Lined Subscript?

I already told MARIO that Atlantis was never near the Americas.
I am sorry to be a SPELL- BREAKER but Atlantis near or in America is a HOAX
Perpetrated by Spanish King FERDINANDO-1 for political reasons.

Columbus WAS looking for Atlantis the fabled(= Hebrew/ Hyperborean) Land to get the Jews away from dear Isabella's " Hermandad "
But IF America had not unexcextedly been afoot/ in the way Columbus would have landed on ARABY and later INDIA
Why do you suppose that he gave Arab names to the Carribean Sea shores ?

Besides I appologizes for beiing a SPOIL-SPORT, but
in PLATO's days; araby was teh KNOWN WORLD of ATLANTIS called OIKUMENOS
LYBIA was thenstill in Ethiopia the Geo name was transplanted by later immograntsa to NORTH-Africa !
ASIA comes in TWO Sizes: Asia MINOR which is Turkey and Asia MAJOR whicgh is ARABY(= Atlantis.)

This misconceoption of Atlantis as an Oceanic Isle
boils down to a ridicoulously-simple translation fault !
which became a ( Cherished-) but falsh Tradition ! Phoei !

Hi Mario,

Thanks for the positive feedback.

Quote
- How do you explain the passage in Critias relating to the region of Gades within a South American Atlantis "universe"?
- How do you explain (from a "motionless" point of view) the fact that North America is in fact in front of Gibraltar and not the South American Continent?

I did attempt to meet as many of Plato's, or more accurately, Solon's specifications as was possible, especially those that would appear to be more reliable. For example, specifications pertaining to the geography of Atlantis—specific measurements of the plain, its central placement on the island, and the arrangement of the surrounding mountains—these are aspects of the island that Solon would have had to take at face value and pass along virtually verbatim. Having no previous knowledge of Atlantis he would have had to trust his Egyptian source and therefore these details would have been passed along intact and proven fairly reliable.

The island's position in relation to the Pillars of Hercules and the Mediterranean is a slightly different matter as its placement had to fit within the limits of Solon's preconceived view of the world, and these details may not prove too reliable considering that this was how Solon apparently envisioned the world:

(http://www.atlantismaps.com/Ch7_images/img_11.gif)

Here’s an example that should help better illustrate this point:
  • You're renting a small cabin with a very small fenced-in yard in the back and a reliable neighbor calls to inform you that there is an elephant in your backyard. He also tells you that it's 12-feet tall, weighs about 10 tons and has only one tusk.

    You call animal control to report the intruder and trusting your neighbor you report it as 12-feet tall, 10-tons and missing one tusk. This portion is relayed accurately as you have to rely solely on your neighbor's description since you are obviously too horrified to look outside.

    Animal control then asks its location and knowing the size of your very small yard you hysterically reply that he is just outside your back door. The only problem is, you're renting the cabin and do not realize that the property actually extends well beyond the fenced-in area. Your preconception of the backyard causes you to erroneously relate the elephant’s location.

Likewise, if the above image represented your view of the world—a centralized island comprised of Europe, Asia and Africa completely surrounded by Oceanus which in turn is surrounded by a ring of mountains—and someone informed you that there was an island the size of Asia and Africa combined located west of the Mediterranean, this limited world view would likely leave you locating Atlantis, or a good portion of it, directly in front of the Pillars of Hercules much as Solon apparently did.

Quote
- On the contrary, in my opinion, the huge distance between South America and the Mediterrenean is perhaps the most obvious element against your theory, how could such long distance be feasible from a Mediterrenean or anywhere else location? (it took me a week to travel from Lisbon to Cape Verde nonstop on a cargo ship)

"For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries."

Consider the great distances sailed for the spice trade. Those trips were a bit longer than a week and a voyage from the Mediterranean to South America is a relatively short distance to travel for riches when compared to traveling from the Mediterranean to the Moluccas Islands in the Pacific.

Quote
- How do you explain the non existence of elephants in South America?

I can't even explain how a single-tusked 12-foot 10-ton elephant suddenly appears in someone's backyard. But seriously, do we have to accept all portions of the account as fact, or is it possible to consider that some portions may have been slightly embellished:

Quote
Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows.....(Critias)

Best regards,
Doug


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on May 21, 2009, 10:18:29 pm
Hello Mario,

Quote
I wonder if you have given any thought to the fact that South America seem to have been linked to New Zealand and Australia... In my theory i propose that after Pangaea break-up Africa and the South American Continents were distantly separated and suddenly got together again when the event of Atlantis sinking occurred (Drake Passage (South Argentina) could be the proof of a violent "near collision" with an asteroid or small Planet although it is believed to have happened 41 millions of years)

My next submission will be addressing earth dynamics and I am hoping to have it posted soon on my website. So for now I am choosing to stay mum on the subject, but I do believe you will be pleasantly surprised by my findings. I will likely post back to this forum when it goes live.

Quote
One has to believe also that the general research towards the finding of Atlantis is more important than our own single investigations and that there will be (supposedly) only one correct answer among several others, as painful as it might be...

Indeed, if we actually ever find the answer... and best of luck with your research.

Sincerely,
Doug Fisher


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on May 21, 2009, 10:27:00 pm
Morrison,

Have you got a space for the capital city yet?

Do you have any opinions on the site I proposed?




Tina Walter,

That's a major drawback of the South American theory, Qoais.  Plato describes a 5 1/2 mile channel from the ocean to the capital city and there is no such waterway leading from the Atlantic to any of the proposes Atlantis capitals in South America.

The newly proposed site does meet your 5 1/2 mile distance from city to sea, I was very much hoping to hear back from you as I was impressed by how your observation was very similar to my own concerning the Altiplano:

Quote
In fact Solon not only stated that the plain was "near the sea," but he also claimed oceangoing vessels were at the very least able to navigate to within 6 miles of the plain while the sea or ocean sat no more than 15 miles from the plain. The Altiplano sits 100 miles east of the nearest ocean, the Pacific, and due to the precipitous coastline absolutely no oceangoing vessel ever sailed nearer than 100 miles of the plain. (The Atlantis Maps) (http://www.atlantismaps.com/chapter_7.html)



-Doug


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on May 21, 2009, 11:34:55 pm
Hello Qoais,

Sorry for not responding earlier.

Hi Guys
Morrison I might have asked you this before, but remember when Plato talked about the harbour being full of ships and how all the other countries sent goods to Atlantis?  In this scenario, where would be all these other countries that were doing trade with Atlantis?

But WHO were all these other countries doing trade with her? that filled her harbours with "Triremes"? that brougt all kinds of goods to her?

The account does not say specifically, but it likely included the inhabitants of the Mediterranean, the same individuals they would later wage war against. As for foreign 'triremes' in the harbor, it seems more likely that it was Atlantis' own vessels doing the transporting, being such a large and wide-reaching empire "many things were brought to them from foreign countries" as opposed to "many things were brought to them by foreign countries."

Quote
"They had such an amount of wealth as was never before possessed by kings and potentates, and is not likely ever to be again. Because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries. The island itself provided most of what was required by them for the uses of life." (Critias)

-Doug


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Qoais on May 21, 2009, 11:50:46 pm
Quote
Because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries.

Because of their greatness??? many things were BROUGHT to them.  Sounds to me like someone was kissing butt bringing many things.  Not them going out and bringing themselves things.  If they were bringing stuff to themselves I think the wording would have been different.  The least way of expressing it would be to say because of their numerous ships, they brought many things from foreign countries.  Brought - to me - means that others are doing the bringing.  And to predicate the sentence with "because of their greatness" makes one to understand that these foreign countries did the bringing to keep on the good side.

However, as I've said in a couple of other threads, I'm thinking Plato is having a bit of a laugh up his sleeve so to speak, because those three walls covered in metal would be a super conductor of electricity, and with the water running along side, the whole place would be "live" in the first lightning storm.  They would have had to ground those walls somehow.  Perhaps the metal itself ran down the wall past the earth line.


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: BlueHue on May 22, 2009, 07:47:02 am
Hello Qoais,

Sorry for not responding earlier.

[." [/size](Critias)

-Doug
[/quote]


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on May 23, 2009, 07:33:21 pm
Hi Qoais,

Because of their greatness??? many things were BROUGHT to them.  Sounds to me like someone was kissing butt bringing many things.  Not them going out and bringing themselves things.  If they were bringing stuff to themselves I think the wording would have been different.  The least way of expressing it would be to say because of their numerous ships, they brought many things from foreign countries.  Brought - to me - means that others are doing the bringing.  And to predicate the sentence with "because of their greatness" makes one to understand that these foreign countries did the bringing to keep on the good side.

The translation does seem to be pushing the idea that foreign countries were trying to gain favor with a very powerful Atlantis and such an interpretation is very possible, but I was attempting to allow for the fuller context of the passage which begins,
Quote
“And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia."

So it seems plausible that in describing the extent to which the people of Atlantis had spread to islands of the sea and the Mediterranean, this passage was originally explaining that Atlantis used these far-reaching agents to bring supplies from countries like those inside the Pillars of Hercules which lacked oceangoing vessels. This interpretation allows for the contextual contrast, "bringing many things from foreign countries" versus "the island itself provided most of what was required."

This seems to fall in line with Desmond Lee's translation:
Quote
"They and their descendants for many generations governed their own territories and many other islands in the ocean and, as has already been said, also controlled the populations this side of the straits as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia. Atlas had a long and distinguished line of descendants, eldest son succeeding eldest son and maintaining the succession unbroken for many generations; their wealth was greater than that possessed by any previous dynasty of kings or likely to be accumulated by any later, and both in the city and countryside they were provided with everything they could require. Because of the extent of their power they received many imports, but for most of their needs the island itself provided."


However, as I've said in a couple of other threads, I'm thinking Plato is having a bit of a laugh up his sleeve so to speak, because those three walls covered in metal would be a super conductor of electricity, and with the water running along side, the whole place would be "live" in the first lightning storm.  They would have had to ground those walls somehow.  Perhaps the metal itself ran down the wall past the earth line.

Maybe you're onto something there; Plato was describing a supercollider. :)

Doubtless there is a bit of embellishment going on in Plato's account and the excessive wall plating seems to fall in that category. If Atlantis existed perhaps we should expect to find such plating around the gates of each wall at best.

-Doug


Title: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars ( in the LAND of the HYPERBOREANS !)
Post by: BlueHue on May 24, 2009, 05:20:52 am
DOUGH,

NO atlantologist knows what PILLARS are in Hindu language: White Arabian Elephants ! not put-up :STELLAE  Herculii

I say in my SUB- Script,  that Atlantis was not an Oceanic Isle so there were NO " Other Sea-Isles " to spread to
but you chose to ignore my Subscript.  So I have to inform you  -separately- of this fact:

Atlantic-Ocean is a mis-translation it was originally named the MIDDLE - SEA surrounding the MIDDLE - World(= Oikumenos.) NOT thye whole World !
But ALL atlantologists failed to spot that distinction.
Atlantis was situated on the Shore of this MIDDLE - SEA

Atlantis was located on the Middle of that MIDDLE - Sea where a bent was dividing the MIDDLE - Sea in the Middle.
Ofcours PLATO said it more eloquently:

Atlantis was opposite the ISLE in the Mouth of the Western-Sea/ Ocean where the PILLARS stood in the Land of the Hyperboreans.
There is NO atlantologist who knows NEITHER the Location of that Oceanic Mouth( connecting a SEA+corridor= Pelagous) with an Ocean !
And when I tell them They don't believe me they want Proof and don't execpt my reckoned proof as proof !

So you'ld understand that the LATIN- Compilers that translated the original Greek Text would get crazy of the word Middle repeating itselve in the Greek text so they did what they were hired for to do, they COMPILED the original Longer Greek sentence into a shorter Latin one !

So instead of Atlantis beiing in the middle bent of the western World Sea they re-wrote Atlanis was an Isle sitting in the middle of the Sea/ Ocean !

The Greek word for ISLE is NESSOS, but PELAGOUS is a SEA- Brance SHORE,
which the Latin Compilers changed into PELAGUSwhich means Isle-realm and is a WRONG  translation.
" ISLE  REALM for a Large nation seems logical so thiswrong translation became a cherished falsh tradiion !

Now 'BIANCA' says she doesn't believe it untill I "prove"  it ! ( i JUST DID i THOUGHT ")and all the "other theorists" have FAILED TO SPOT THIS, BUT JUST IGNORE IT !  ( I don't mind beiing named a" TROLL " but I hope ' BIANCA' will remember her " true " words when my Blue's- Theory is vindicated-- :'( :o :'(

So much for Atlantology inquisiveness ! Ignoring the Truth because of the 1.000 would be antologists only RICH, Atalante and GEORGEOS have an inkling of Greek & Latin ! The others have a big hole in their cartographic knowledge on Atlantis and by denying my discovery simply profess their ignorance on ancient cartography  ' BIANCQA " got mad the otherf day when I told her that Columbus gave arabic names to America because if it was NOT in his way he would have landed on the coast of South ARABY which he named India nova !Thinking until 1500 ad that America was ARABY( NOT india )

SO the atlantologists ( who unlike CAYCE & DONNELLY,  )  are ignorant in both Greek and Latin, think that they have " scrutinized " the english translation of 1925, of Plato's (- corrupted - !)Atlantis " TEXTUS - RECEPTUS " and continue happilly to bark up a wrong tree ! and don't like to be told a story different from the ( Falsh-)MAIN Stream

Still It helps me to avoid infringements on my Copy-Right !

Sincerely " Blue - Hue "  24 May --2009


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on June 20, 2009, 06:13:40 pm
For those interested and having Google Earth installed, the following link displays the rings of Atlantis scaled to the circular landform in the Parana Delta.

Rings of Atlantis on Google Earth (http://atlantismaps.com/AtlantisRings.kmz)

The outermost ring represents Atlantis' outer channel of water with an outside diameter of 3.10 miles (27 stadia) and inside diameter of 2.41 miles (21 stadia). You can use the program's ruler feature (Tools>Ruler) to verify the diameters.

Select Historical Imagery from the menu (View>Historical Imagery) to get a clearer view of the island from 2003. There you will see some unique darkened areas mostly retained within the southern portion of the central ring. One of these dark patches conforms to the only manmade building dimensioned in Plato's account, one believed to be located on the small central island. In the image below a rectangular outline approximately 606 feet (1 stadium) by 303 feet (1/2 stadium) conforming to Poseidon's temple has been placed over this dark shaded area.

(http://atlantismaps.com/images/Temple.jpg)

Are these dark patches signs of the surface soil being affected by buried structures such as the temple and palaces? There is likely another very simple explanation for these patches, but feel free to use the Google Earth link to examine the island for signs of ancient structures or excavation. You can also use the ruler feature to confirm the 10,000 stadia (1,150 mile) perimeter of the rectangular Mesopotamian Plain located off to the northwest.

-Doug


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Damien Woodruff on June 22, 2009, 01:35:27 am
Hello Doug,

Google Earth is a notoriously unreliable source for satellite imagery.  A few months back, we thought we spotted city grids in the eastern part of the Atlantic.  They turned out to be mapping lines (or so they claimed).

Where do you place Atlantis at again?


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Qoais on June 22, 2009, 09:53:44 am
Some co-ordinates would be nice.


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on June 22, 2009, 09:40:34 pm
Hello Doug,

Google Earth is a notoriously unreliable source for satellite imagery.  A few months back, we thought we spotted city grids in the eastern part of the Atlantic.  They turned out to be mapping lines (or so they claimed).


Hello Damien,

I'm not relying on Google Earth alone and definitely not artifacts from seafloor scans as in the case you are referring to.

Where do you place Atlantis at again?

I am proposing that South America is the continent of Atlantis with the new twist being that Argentina's Mesopotamian Plain is likely the plain of Plato's dialogues. Atlantis' plain is described as a rectangle defined by the waterways flowing around it, forming a 10,000-stadia (1,150-mile) perimeter.

The Mesopotamian Plain is the world's largest rectangular plain defined by waterways on all four sides, and in fact you won't find another even half its size. The Parana and Uruguay Rivers enclose the plain with a perimeter very close to Plato's specified 10,000-stadia and the plain is also positioned in the center of the continent with its narrow width extending from the coast inward, again per Plato's specifications. And finally, the plain is also surrounded by mountains on three sides, but open toward the south and located within 14.5 miles of the sea, again conforming to Plato's specs.

These are all specifications which you can verify with a good map or Google Earth. If you have Google Earth installed select the following link and open the kmz file. It will whisk you away directly to the Mesopotamian Plain where I have placed an overlay to help highlight it and the surrounding waterways:

http://www.atlantismaps.com/Mesopotamia.kmz

(Trust me this is very cool and a great tool others here may wish to employ.)

Also there is only one circular landform in the Parana Delta and not only is it located almost precisely where Plato places Atlantis' circular city, but it also has a diameter that is spot on as well.

Some co-ordinates would be nice.

As you wish. Here are the coordinates for the site of the circular capital city linked to Google Maps:

33°54'59.04"S  58°31'26.50"W (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%2033%C2%B054%2759.04%22S%20%2058%C2%B031%2726.50%22W&sa=N&tab=wl&um=1)

Here is a link to the site on Google Earth with rings overlain:

http://www.atlantismaps.com/AtlantisRings.kmz


-Doug



Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Qoais on June 22, 2009, 11:20:53 pm
Isn't that plain supposed to be underwater?  If the capital which was built on the mountain not very high, sunk, then the plain, which was lower (since the mountain not very high stuck up in the middle of it) would also be under water.  And how do you figure that this fits with the statment, that the way was blocked by mud for voyagers?  And how do the Egyptians supposedly know about this place?  Is it written in their history somewhere that they traded with folks from that far away and where is the proof of ships travelling that distance?  On a regular basis too because Plato said their harbours were filled with triremes, and that goods were brought to her from other countries.  What other countries?


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Atlantica Reuterskiold on June 23, 2009, 12:44:06 am
Doug, your proposasl sounds interesting to me.  There are even proofs that trade existed between the new world and the old.

Qoais does raise some good points, though, namely:

Where's the mud?
The mud from the subsidence of the island was also supposed to affect Greek ships.  Clearly, it couldn't do that if the sinking occurred all the way in South America.

I think we are looking for an actual island, closer to the Pillars.  Everything else makes a good points, save for these two sticking points.


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on June 23, 2009, 01:28:08 am
Isn't that plain supposed to be underwater?  If the capital which was built on the mountain not very high, sunk, then the plain, which was lower (since the mountain not very high stuck up in the middle of it) would also be under water. And how do you figure that this fits with the statment, that the way was blocked by mud for voyagers?

Hello Qoais,

It seems more realistic to interpret the account as placing the capital just beyond the plain instead of its center. According to Plato it was "near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia (5.7 miles from the plain which conforms to the circular landform in the Parana Delta). Plato also records that the plain's surrounding waterways "received the streams which came down from the mountains and after circling round the plain, and coming towards the city on this side and on that, it discharged them thereabouts into the sea." This also conforms to both the Parana and Uruguay Rivers which ultimately empty into the sea near the circular landform.

As for being underwater, there's quite a bit more detail on my site about the actual demise befalling Atlantis, but suffice it to say that Solon's world view would not allow another continent to exist within Oceanus. Therefore, when the Egyptian account described an island sinking into the sea Solon would have been forced to apply this to the whole of the island continent.

However, the location of an island in a delta would accommodate the destruction described. The soil in a delta would be extremely susceptible to liquefaction during a quake, possibly explaining why the Athenian warriors are described as having "sank into the earth" as opposed to having sunk into the sea. Prolonged liquefaction and possibly tsunamis would have seen the island and most of the delta eventually subside beneath the sea.

Regarding the mud that blocked passage, "The island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, there is a shoal of mud in the way" If we allow that it was Atlantis' city isle which sank then it makes perfect sense "Atlantis' island city in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, there is a shoal of mud in the way".

And how do the Egyptians supposedly know about this place?  Is it written in their history somewhere that they traded with folks from that far away and where is the proof of ships travelling that distance?  On a regular basis too because Plato said their harbours were filled with triremes, and that goods were brought to her from other countries.  What other countries?

I attempted to address this earlier. According to Solon, Atlantis peopled many of the islands in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean and these likely acted as agents in behalf of Atlantis and peoples within the Mediterranean. How did the Egyptians know that it was possible to sail around Africa and be below the equator? How did Solomon import much of his gold and other goods? Both employed Phoenician's to man fleets and the voyages they undertook lasted three years. The Egyptian trip around Africa would have been roughly 15,000 miles. A round trip from Egypt in the Mediterranean to the Mesopotamian Plain of South America and back is also about 15,000 miles so the Phoenicians were obviously capable of making the trip.

Keep in mind that I definitely do not believe Atlantis was still around at the time of King Solomon, but neither do I believe it met its demise over 11,000 years ago and I believe Plato's account actually contains clues which point to a much later period... but that's another chapter, which I will be submitting to my website at a later date.

-Doug


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Qoais on June 23, 2009, 10:42:23 am
G'Day
Quote
Although the account relates that "all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth" this would seem to be with the exception of those few that survived to tell the tale. The survivors of this terrible cataclysm might well have been aboard an Athenian vessel sitting beyond the delta, being able to witness much of the devastation and carnage with little to no harm befalling themselves. From this vantage point the crew may have discerned that the great island city had receded into the earth, while the channel leading to the city having become barricaded with mud was likely strewn with partially buried ships and the bodies of combatants from both sides of the conflict.

With the realization that the great city had come to its climatic end as tsunami waves completely washed over the delta, the intrepid crew would have reversed course back to the Mediterranean where their story would eventually reach and be recorded by the Egyptians. But regardless of the wide-ranging emotions that accompanied them on their long journey home, emotions would soon transition to overwhelming grief and horror with the realization that their homeland had not been spared. The catastrophic devastation that befell Atlantis would prove to be only a portion of a much, much larger global cataclysm.


Let's see if I've got this figured out as to what you say.

First of all, you're saying that regular trade occurred between Atlantis and .....who?  The Athenians, the Egyptians, the Sea Peoples, the Phoenicians?  Because Plato does say that the Atlanteans had control of Europe to Italy (Tyrennia) and of Libya to Egypt.  Therefore, can we assume that this is not a big secret and that people knew they were trading with someone out in the Atlantic?  Also, it wasn't a secret because we have a war with the Atlanteans to account for, and yet no one else seems to know of it.  To me, what you're saying and what Plato said, are pretty different. 

If the Atlanteans had such control over the Med. areas, then people knew of them.  If they were having a war with all of the Eastern Med. people would have known of it.  Nothing else seems to have been written of this.

Although science is setting the time line farther and farther back in history for humans to have developed stuff, so far, there does not seem to be any proof that there were ocean going vessels - especially on a regular basis - 11,000 years ago.  Not to say it was impossible, but to sail the ocean on a regular basis in a reed boat even, would take some daring do.!


You're saying that the Egyptians heard the tale of Atlantis sinking from Atlantean men on board an Athenian vessel.  Are you saying then that the battle took place at Atlantis?  That the Athenian warriors were fighting in S. America?  That the Atlantean men were prisoners of the Athenians who then took them back to Greece - or dropped them off in Egypt?  That Athens did have ocean going ships that far back?

So what lost them the war?  Their homeland sinking?  Then what about all the people who were in the colonies along the Med.?  Would they not have written about their homeland and their history?  If they were trying to take over the rest of the known world - basically the Eastern end of the Med., then when they lost the war, wouldn't the other nations, like Greece and Egypt, turn and attack the colonies that were in control of the Western end of the Med.?  If that were the case, surely there would be something written about this as well.  Unless of course, that IS what is being written about. 

I've said it so often - that Plato goes back and forth in time - perhaps it is that the Atlanteans who had ORIGINALLY come from outside the pillars BEFORE their home sunk - were trying to take over the Eastern end of the Med.  Meaning that by this time, there was no more Atlantis (but in an aside it is mentioned that the homeland sunk) and in the end, when this war was supposedly happening with Athens, again nauture had her way and even tho they supposedly won, the Athenians fighting the Atlanteans were destroyed by a cataclysm, just like Atlantis had been in the past. (Which means the war wasn't in S. America then) But even so.  IF the Atlanteans had colonized the Western end of the Med., a long time in the past, wouldn't there have been a history for them say in Italy, say in Morocco, say in Spain, say in Libya?  Somewhere?  Other than just Egypt.?  Because altho Athens had horrible weather for saving stuff, Egypt didn't.  Put it this way.  ARFRICA didn't.  Neither did Spain.  All these place I've mentioned should have had some kind of information regarding the history of their people.  Namely the Atlanteans.

Is this as clear as mud?


Title: Re: Atlantis: The Land Beyond The Pillars
Post by: Doug Fisher on June 24, 2009, 12:39:40 am
Qoais,

The fact is that South America with its Mesopotamian Plain is by far the closest match to Plato’s geographical specifications and is perhaps too similar to be coincidence. And what I am actually saying is IF South America does somehow prove to be Atlantis, then we will have to allow that other aspects of the Atlantis account may be historical fact as well regardless if the Egyptians maintained the story on nonextant papyrus scrolls, with Plato being one of the last to have a written copy.

Reconciling the account with South America as Atlantis, as with any other site, requires a great deal of speculation and will be at odds with the accepted view of history. As I said before, I do not think the war occurred as far back as reported and based on the account of the Trojan war the Greeks were competent sailors around the 13th century BC; sailing ships holding 50 to 120 crew members. Discovery of Troy in the 19th century helped buoy this belief. Discovering Atlantis in South America may support a bit earlier date allowing that identifiable Greek artifacts are unearthed. Besides if at that point we are forced to accept the improbable idea that a people outside of the Mediterranean had a fleet of oceangoing ships navigating the Mediterranean and much of the Atlantic, it's not much of stretch to accept some similar capabilities for Greece in the same time period.

-Doug