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Ancient South America & it's Connection to Atlantis

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Author Topic: Ancient South America & it's Connection to Atlantis  (Read 9545 times)
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« on: January 24, 2007, 02:35:25 am »

I have originally posted some of this material in another forum, however, I believe it also best to post it here as well.

My theory is inspired by Jim Allen's work, however, it is not confined to his work. Some details, he has explained sufficiently, others need further elucidation. However, it seems logical that South America, in some shape or form, had to be the place that Plato spoke of.

I welcome any comments, criticisms or additions to this work.

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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2007, 02:36:30 am »

The intent ot this thread is to explore ancient South American culture, dispel current thought about it's antiquity and prove it's linkage to that most hallowed of the names of lost civilizations, Atlantis.


Plato sets Atlantis not only beyond the Pillars of Hercules but in the Atlantic Ocean. That would seem to totally write off a Mediterranean based Atlantis, no matter which country it is set in. It may also write off both the Morocco and Spain theories, too, sad to say, depending on how well the Greeks knew their geography. I’m guessing they knew a great deal more about it than what people here seem to give it credit for.

Which leaves the Atlantic itself: no sunken landmass in the Atlantic, I agree with that as well as the notion that the Atlantic Islands commonly said to be remnants of Atlantis (Azores, Canaries, etc.) may well be too small. I’d also suggest that Cuba is too small to be Atlantis, too, and that the Antarctica theory is a bit way out there.

So does that leave us completely out of luck?


South America matches, almost word for word, Plato’s dialogues. It has been overlooked as a possible candidate, because of a cultural bias, but there is no place in the world that matches it better.

*We have hundreds of ancient cities covered in undergrowth, pyramids all over the place.

*South America, as a continent, is certainly "larger than Asia and Libya combined," at least.

*We have the Altiplano, who’s dimensions match almost totally those of Plato’s large rectangular plain.

*We have the Andes Mountain range, some of the tallest in the world.

*Ancient canals unearthed in Peru, Plato, too spoke of a network of canals.

*The majority of South America is “sheltered from the Northern Plains,” as Plato says.

*Evidence of cocoa leafs, a plant that only grows in South America found in mummies of Egypt(proof that ancient people from each side of the Atlantic had contact with one another).

*The Guanche pyramids, which most closely match those in South America than those in Egypt.

*Evidence of a Pre-Clovis culture in the Americas, pushing settlement there back past 13,000 bc.

*The Kircher map of Atlantis even resembles South America.

As I said, there is a Mediterranean bias in the forum, but the geography certainly favors South America. In my opinion.
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2007, 02:37:28 am »

Taken literally, South America would have had to have been Atlantis. No other area of the world so fits Plato's descriptions. There is even a substance called orichalcum is said to have even been found there. The early Conquistadors were even certain it was Atlantis, too, that idea was later corrected by western archaeologists. Most likely, the initial perception was the correct one.

I think we get hung up too much about this level of "distance" and influence on the Mediterranean. The fact is, there is proof of contact between the two civilizations, so they did trade with one another, knew of one another.

As for the dating of the cities, you won't find any of this in the English textbooks, but South Amercian archaeologists date their structures far earlier than the west does. I am confident that science will rectify this wrong someday.

Timeline: no one here takes Plato's 9000 years bc idea seriously anyway, and, if they don't, that gives so much more to play with.

Mayan temples show elephant depictions so it's likely they had them (or imported them from Africa). (I credit George Erikson with the elephant discovery).

I'll admit that the war with Athens is a problem, but that is a problem no matter which theory we choose.

Other choices:

Morocco - Interesting, but there is no evidence for a civilization even remotely such as Plato writes of. We have literally hundreds of ancient cities in South America, many, many more covered by jungle growth.

Turkey - Interesting, too, but once again there are the geographic problems I spoke of earlier.

What troubles me most in the way that mythology (Tantalus/Atlas) is the primary basis for linkage here. I think we get too hung up on the idea of following the mythology here. This is a local myth, most likely irrelevant to the whole idea of Atlantis. We must remember that Atlantis (not being in the region) most likely had it's own mythology with all different set of gods so impressing any local mythology on it would be a bad idea.

Santorini/Crete: A bad idea. It bears superficial comparisons to Atlantis at best, once again, is inside the Mediterranean and does not resemble the area that Plato spoke of. I believe it's not even 1/10th the size that Plato speaks of. Archaeologists prefer it because Santorini supposedly was in the shape of a ring. Well, I had friend who's bathtub frequently had a ring, nor was that place either Atlantis.

South America is the only one that actually does bear a resemblance to the place Plato speaks of (taken literally). As I said, there does seem to be a predisposition towards the Mediterranean cultures, though, which is most likely one of the reasons Atlantis has yet to be found: it's being looked for in all the wrong places.
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2007, 02:39:13 am »

Statements Comparison 50 Points

Below follows a comparison of the main points of Plato's geographic description of Atlantis
in relation to the Altiplano in Bolivia next to Lake Poopo.

In some paragraphs, the three different translations by Benjamin Jowett, R.G.Bury (1929)
and Sir Desmond Lee (1971) are given in order to try and amplify the original text.

from the Timaeus:
Interpretation and comments

Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true

And what is this ancient famous action of the Athenians, which Critias declared, on the authority of Solon, to be not a mere legend, but an actual fact?

And what other, Critias, can we find that will be better than this, which is natural and suitable to the festival of the goddess, and has the very great advantage of being a fact and not a fiction?
Plato says three times that the Atlantis story is a true story. He says that they are going to use this story as the basis of a story which they will use and build upon at the festival of Athena

you must not be surprised if you should perhaps hear Hellenic names given to foreigners Solon, who was intending to use the tale for his poem, enquired into the meaning of the names, and found that the early Egyptians in writing them down had translated them into their own language,

and he recovered the meaning of the several names and when copying them out again translated them into our language
Poseidon was the Greek god of the sea, known as Neptune in Rome and Tunapa in Bolivia. Other words such as Trireme is the familiar Greek name for a ship or warship.

She founded your city a thousand years before ours, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred registers to be eight thousand years old.
According to the tale, Egypt was founded around 8,500BC and Athens in 9,500BC

As touching your citizens of nine thousand years ago,
There is no record of civilisations in Egypt or Greece in 9,600BC, but Plato uses the same date for the destruction of Atlantis as he does for the founding of Greece and the wars between Atlantis, Greece and Egypt.

1 For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, Jowett

For it is related in our records how once upon a time your state stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant point in the Atlantic ocean, Bury

Our records tell how your city checked a great power which arrogantly advanced from its base in the Atlantic ocean Lee
Atlantis was located in the Atlantic Ocean. It is pointless to try and relocate Atlantis to within the Straits or move the Straits to inside the Mediterranean, because the text clearly says Atlantis was a continent in the Atlantic Ocean.

2 there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; Jowett

in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, "the pillars of Heracles" Bury

There was an island opposite the strait which you call (so you say) the Pillars of Heracles, Lee
The island of Atlantis was located in front of or opposite the Straits of Gibraltar (Pillars of Hercules). South America is the "island" opposite the Strait of Gibraltar.

3 the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together,
Atlantis was a continent as large as Libya (North Africa) and Asia combined.

South America is the continent which is opposite the Straits and in the correct location

4 and was the way to other islands
Beyond South America there are islands in the Pacific

5 and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean;
which lead to "the opposite continent" i.e to Asia, the true ocean being the Atlantic and Pacific combined and which surrounds all of the Earth

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits
This sounds like a description of the war by the "Sea Peoples" against Egypt which took place around 1226BC and 1186BC. The "Sea Peoples" also advanced by land, entering Egypt from Palestine and Libya.

6 afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. Jowett

At a later time there occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and one grievous day and night befell them, and the island of Atlantis in like manner was swallowed up by the sea and vanished Bury

At a later time there were earthquakes and floods of extraordinary violence, and in one single dreadful day and night the island of Atlantis was swallowed up by the sea and vanished; Lee
Atlantis was destroyed by earthquakes and floods. The Altiplano has periodically been subject to climatic change in the form of alternating inland seas (lakes Minchin, Tauca, Coipasa) and dry periods. It is also prone to earthquakes, evidence of which can be seen at Pampa Aullagas where the volcano and the surrounding plain has been sunk by earthquakes. It was only the capital island city of Atlantis which sank into the sea, not the whole continent.
Lake Tauca

7 For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island. Jowett

wherefore also the ocean at that spot has now become impassable and unsearcheable, being blocked up by the shoal mud which the island threw up as it settled down Bury

this is why the sea in that area is to this day impassable to navigation, which is hindered by mud just below the surface, the remains of the sunken island. Lee
The inland sea of Lake Poopo formerly called Lake Aullagas is sometimes entirely impassable to boats when it dries up in the dry season. Plato implied that the island of Atlantis was swallowed up by the sea and disappeared beneath the earth, but Sir Francis Bacon said Plato got it wrong and the sea rose to cover the city.

from Critias:

that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war
Nine thousand years previously was given as the date for the founding of Athens but is also given as the date for the war and end of Atlantis. Clearly there is an error here, but if the 9,000 years were taken as lunar months then it would be 1260BC which is the date of the Trojan war and more or less the date of the founding of Athens (1400BC) by Theseus. It is unlikely that Atlantis could have existed on the Altiplano in 9,600BC since at that time it had already been under the waters of Lake Tauca for some time. When Lake Tauca dried up, there were periods of alternating droughts and floods and Atlantis could have begun in any of these periods continuing perhaps up to the date of around 1260BC (substituting months for years) which Plato gave for the war and Atlantis' subsequent destruction.

8 Looking towards the sea, but in the centre of the whole island, there was a plain Jowett

Bordering on the sea and extending through the centre of the whole island there was a plain Bury

At the centre of the island (ie midway along its greatest length,) near the sea, was a plain Lee
This plain is the Altiplano, which not only is on the centre of the whole continent, but as Lee says, it is midway along its longest side.

9 Near the plain again, and also in the centre of the island at a distance of about fifty stadia, there was a mountain not very high on any side. Jowett

and, moreover, near the plain, over against its centre, at a distance of about fifty stades, there stood a mountain that was low on all sides. Bury

and near the middle of this plain about fifty stades inland a hill of no great size. Lee
At this location we find the volcanic mountain of Pampa Aullagas, a central cone on top of a low plateau fifty stades or five miles from the inland sea of Lake Poopo
the low mountain

10 Theron dwelt one of the natives originally sprung from the earth… and Poseidon, being smitten with desire for her, wedded her. Bury
This corresponds to the tale of Tunapa, God of the lakes and rivers who married Azanques, god of a hill opposite Pampa Aullagas.

11 Poseidon ...breaking the ground, enclosed the hill all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet Jowett make the hill impregnable he broke it off all round about; and he made circular belts of sea and land enclosing one another alternately, some greater, some smaller, , so as to be impassable for man; for at that time neither ships nor sailing were yet in existence. Bury

Poseidon...fortified the hill by enclosing it with concentric rings of sea and land, making the place impassable for man (for there were still no ships or sailing in those days) Lee
In the Bolivian story, Tunapa ran away from Azanaques and laid down in Pampa Aullagas, thus creating the ringed formation there, described as zones, belts or rings. Pampa Aullagas has remains of these zones of land and formerly sea when the lake level was higher.

12 there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, Jowett

two being of land and three of sea, which he carved as it were out of the midst of the island; and these belts were at even distances on all sides Bury

There were two rings of land and three of sea, like cartwheels, with the island at their centre and equidistant from each other, Lee
At Pampa Aullagas there is an outer zone of land, an inner gully or depression representing a former zone of sea, another zone of land and within that another gully depression then the central hill five stades wide.
former zone of sea

13 beginning from the sea they bored a canal of three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbour, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress.
At Pampa Aullagas there is to this day a canal or river which leads from the sea to the outer ring at the site and continues on to the level plain.

14 Moreover, they divided the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, leaving room for a single trireme to pass out of one zone into another

they covered over the channels so as to leave a way underneath for the ships; for the banks were raised considerably above the water.
The outer ring at Pampa Aullagas has a gap where ships could have sailed through.

15 Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two zones, the one of water, the other of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width.
The outer ring of water at Pampa Aullagas has disappeared as has the southern section of the site. A part ring of land remains with a depression on the inside where there are stones covered in deposits from the lake showing it was at one time under water. On the inside of that there is another steep ring of land and on the inside of that another gully or depression with the central island beyond that.

16 The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia
The central island or cone at Pampa Aullagas is five stades wide.

17 The island and the circles they encompassed with a wall of stone. Bury
The site at Pampa Aullagas including the outer ring is encompassed in a wall of stone.

18 some being white, some black and some red.
Black, red and white stones are found at Pampa Aullagas.

19 Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, varying the colour to please the eye, and to be a natural source of delight.
At nearby Quillacas, the local church is built of red, black and white stones varied to give a pleasing appearance.
Quillacas church

20 In the first place they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, mineral as well as metal, and that which is only a name and was something more than a name then, orichalc, was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, and except gold was the most precious of metals Jowett

Metals to begin with, both the hard kind and the fusible kind, which are extracted by mining, and also that kind which is now known only by name but was more then a name then, there being mines of it in many parts of the island, - I mean "orichalcum" which was the most precious of the metals then known, except gold.
i.e. "mountain copper", a "sparkling" metal hard to identify. Bury

It had mineral resources from which were mined both solid materials and metals, including one metal which survives today only in name, but was then mined in quantities in a number of locations in the island, orichalc, in those days the most valuable metal except gold. Lee
"a completely unknown and imaginery metal" Lee
Orichalcum is considered by Sir Desmond Lee to be a
"a completely unknown and imaginery metal" but such a natural alloy exists only in the Andes where it is called Tumbaga. It can be polished and the copper surface dissolved out to resemble pure gold.

21 The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum. Jowett

And they covered with brass, as though with a plaster, all the circumference of the wall which surrounded the outermost circle; and that of the inner one they coated with tin; and that which encompassed the acropolis itself with orichalcum which sparkled like fire Bury

And they covered the whole circuit of the outermost wall with a veneer of bronze, they fused tin over the inner wall and orichalc gleaming like fire over the wall of the acropolis itself Lee
Brass, tin and orichalcum according to Jowett and Bury.

Bronze, tin and orichalcum according to Lee.

Brass is an alloy of coper and zinc.

Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin.

Orichalcum is an alloy of gold and copper.

All these metals and alloys are plentiful in the region around Lake Poopo, Bolivia including a mountain of tin next to a mountain of silver at Potosi

22 All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver,
nearby Potosi was a mountain of solid silver

23 and the pinnacles with gold
gold was abundant in pre-Inca times

In the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, curiously wrought everywhere with gold and silver and orichalcum Jowett

(ivory in appearance, variegated with gold and silver and orichalcum Bury)
all these metals exist all around the plain and Lake Poopo

and all the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor, they coated with orichalcum .
the naturally occurring alloy of gold and copper

24 In the temple they placed statues of gold: And around the temple on the outside were placed statues of gold of all the descendants of the ten kings and of their wives
The custom of having golden statues of their ancestors continued into the time of the Incas
gold mask

25 they had such an amount of wealth as was never before possessed by kings and potentates, and is not likely ever to be again
The nearby mountain of Potosi was the source of silver which provided the finance for the Spanish Empire. The land is also rich in gold which motivated the Spanish to it's conquest.

26 He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold
Hot and cold springs exist on the Altiplano and can be seen at Pazna. Underground pools also exist at Pampa Aullagas.
hot spring

27 and they were wonderfully adapted for use by reason of the pleasantness and excellence of their waters.
On the Island of the Sun in Lake Titicaca can be seen Inca springs with different types of water according to their properties.
Inca springs

28 also they made cisterns, some open to the heavens, others roofed over, to be used in winter as warm baths
At Pazna on the other side of Lake Poopo can be seen thermal baths and a large stone bath open to the elements.

29 The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.
From Pampa Aullagas, one could travel by boat to the far north-west corner of the plain or even as far away as to the northern end of Lake Titicaca, a distance of some 300 miles. The Uru culture was very much a water borne culture thriving along the aquatic axis of the Altiplano.

Because of their headship, they had a large supply of imports from abroad
It is a very large continent and "imports from abroad" could simply mean from other parts of the continent. However, in the museum at Oruro may be seen an amphora similar to those form the Eastern Mediterranean and the Fuente Magna dish found near Lake Titicaca with cuneiform writing also suggests a contact with ancient Sumeria.
amphora cuneiform

I will now describe the plain, as it was fashioned by nature and by the labours of many generations of kings through long ages.

30 The whole country was said by him to be very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea, but the country immediately about and surrounding the city was a level plain, itself surrounded by mountains which descended towards the sea; Jowett

The whole region rose sheer out of the sea to a great height, but the part about the city was all a smooth plain, enclosing it round about, and being itself encircled by mountains which stretched as far as to the sea; Bury

To begin with the region as a whole was said to be high above the level of the sea, from which it rose precipitously; the city was surrounded by a uniformly flat plain, which was in turn enclosed by mountains which came right down to the sea. Lee
Note Jowett's translation…"precipitious on the side of the sea" The Altiplano is enclosed by mountains which just like the description, rise sheer out of the sea to a great height on the Western side of the plain i.e. on the side of the Pacific Ocean. The whole region, as Plato says, is high above the level of the (Ocean) sea and the mountains enclose it round about.

31 the plain was smooth and even Jowett

and this plain had a level surface Bury

a uniformly flat plain Lee
The Altiplano is smooth and level, the largest level plain in the world.
level plain

32 and of an oblong shape, It was for the most part rectangular and oblong, Jowett

and was as a whole rectangular in shape, This plain was rectangular in shape, It was originally a quadrangle, rectilinear for the most part, and elongated; Bury

It was naturally a long, regular rectangle; Lee
The Altiplano near Lake Poopo is indeed rectangular in shape and elongated, or as Lee says, a long, narrow rectangle.
rectangular plain

33 extending in one direction three thousand stadia, but across the centre inland it was two thousand stadia Jowett

being 3000 stades long on either side and 2000 stades wide at its centre, reckoning upwards from the sea. Bury

measuring three thousand stades in length and at its mid-point two thousand stades in breadth from the coast. Lee
The Altiplano near lake Poopo is in the proportion of 3,000 long by 2,000 wide, the unit here being half a stade i.e. 300ft instead of the Greek 600ft stade.

34 and what it lacked of this shape they made right by means of a trench dug round about it. Now, as regards the depth of this trench and its breadth and length, it seems incredible that it should be so large as the account states, considering that it was made by hand, and in addition to all the other operations, but nonetheless we must report what we heard.: It was dug out to the depth of a plethrum and to a uniform breadth of a stade, and since it was dug round the whole plain its consequent length was 10,000 stades.
In the desert north-west of Lake Poopo there is a feature resembling a giant canal of the dimensions Plato has given. It joins pools of natural underground springs and is used by the locals to pasture their flocks. The elevations of the rectangular Altiplano are such that a canal could be dug around it's perimeter in the fashion Plato described.

The plain was for the most part rectangular and oblong,

and where falling out of the straight line followed the circular ditch. Jowett

It (the canal) made a complete circuit of the plain, running round to the city from both directions, and there discharging into the sea Lee

and (the canal) winding round the plain Donnelly
It is the plain which is rectangular and measures 3,000 x 2,000 "stades", sometimes the canal system is shown in a chequerboard pattern but other translations say it "wound its way around the plain" implying it followed natural contours and avoided obstacles such as volcanic outcrops.

35 The depth, and width, and length of this ditch were incredible, and gave the impression that a work of such extent, in addition to so many others, could never have been artificial. Nevertheless I must say what I was told. It was excavated to the depth of a hundred, feet, and to a uniform breadth of a stade.
The section visited on site was over one stade or 600ft wide and the archaeologists had the impression it could not have been artificial, however a local geologist studying air photos of the feature asserted it was indeed artificial.

36 It received the streams which came down from the mountains and after circling round the plain, and coming towards the city on this side and on that, it discharged them thereabouts into the sea.
There are streams which come down from the mountains surrounding the plain and a perimeter canal could discharge them into Lake Poopo.

37 And on the inland side of the city channels were cut in straight lines, of about 100 feet in width, across the plain, and these discharged themselves into the trench on the seaward side, the distance between each being 100 stades.
Transverse canals in straight lines exist today in the vicinity of the Chipaya village in the middle of the Salar de Coipasa and are still in use by the people there.
Chipaya canals

38 It was in this way that they conveyed to the city the timber from the mountains and transported also on boats the seasons' products, by cutting transverse passages from one channel to the next and also to the city.
there were formerly trees around the Altiplano, much of the original vegetation was destroyed by the Spaniards and the animals they brought with them. The Uru peoples still use reed boats for transportation today.
The Urus

39 The surrounding mountains were celebrated for their number and size and beauty, far beyond any which still exist, having in them also many wealthy villages of country folk, and rivers, and lakes, and meadows supplying food enough for every animal, wild or tame, and much wood of various sorts, abundant for each and every kind of work.
The surrounding mountains are high volcanic peaks such as Sajama 21,464ft, Ilampu 21067ft, Illimani 21005ft and there are indeed many villages, meadows, rivers, lakes etc.
Lago Macaya

40 Twice in the year they gathered the fruits of the earth - in winter having the benefit of the rains of heaven, and in summer the water which the land supplied by introducing streams from the canals
Where raised fields have been restored near Lake Titicaca they have been able to harvest two crops per year and would have been able to sustain a vastly greater population than today. The water table was a delicately balanced system and in some periods would flow from Lake Titicaca to the south whereas at other times it could flow northwards.

41 This part of the island looked towards the south, and was sheltered from the north
This part of the island faces towards the South Seas. In earlier times the winds from the north were colder, which led to more precipitation.

42 He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children
The whole country was divided into ten kingdoms, they were therefore twin kingdoms. The Aymara kingdoms around Lake Poopo were similarly divided into twin kingdoms and according to Huaman Poma, the first inhabitants were also born in pairs.

43 Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the island
Skeletons of Mastodons may be seen in the museum in Tarija to the south of the plain.

44 there was provision for all other sorts of animals, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains,
The country is full of lakes, marshes and rivers.

45 Also whatever fragrant things there now are in the earth, whether roots, or herbage, or woods, or essences which distil from fruit and flower, grew and thrived in that land;
it also grows every conceivable product in abundance

46 And of the inhabitants of the mountains and of the rest of the country there was also a vast multitude
Huaman Poma recorded that there was a vast population before the time of the Incas and that the watercourses, reservoirs etc could not easily be repeated.

47 For many generations, as long as the divine nature lasted in them, they were obedient to the laws, for they possessed true and in every way great spirits, uniting gentleness with wisdom in the various chances of life, and in their intercourse with one another.

They despised everything but virtue, caring little for their present state of life, and thinking lightly of the possession of gold and other property, which seemed only a burden to them;

neither were they intoxicated by luxury; nor did wealth deprive them of their self-control;

but they were sober, and saw clearly that all these goods are increased by virtue and friendship with one another,

whereas by too great regard and respect for them, they are lost and friendship with them.

but when the divine portion began to fade away, and became diluted too often and too much with the mortal admixture, and the human nature got the upper hand, they then, being unable to bear their fortune, behaved unseemly, and to him who had an eye to see grew visibly debased, for they were losing the fairest of their precious gifts;

but to those who had no eye to see the true happiness, they appeared glorious and blessed at the very time when they were full of avarice and unrighteous power.

Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows...
According to the Bolivian legend, the god Tunapa walked amongst the people and tried to persuade them from their bad habits but was cast adrift in a boat and eventually drowned in the waters of Pampa Aullagas when the city was also destroyed by earthquakes and floods sent as a punishment by the gods.
legend of Tunapa

48 Pampa Aullagas
Pampa means "level plain" in Quechua

Aullagas in Aymara means the same as "Desaguadero" or drain but another interpretation is that it meant "ullada" or "hoyada" meaning "sunk pampa" or again the combination of "auga" and "-illa" meaning "no more."

49 "Atl" means "water" in Aztec Nahuatl.

In the wet season large parts of Amazonia are under water
"Uma" is the Aymara word for water and Umasuyo the Aymara name for the eastern half of the Andes - the kingdom of water.

The Altiplano itself was also a water kingdom with it's inland seas of Lakes Titicaca and Poopo connected by the River Desaguadero.

50 the name "Atlantis"

"Antis" means "copper" in Quechua of the Incas. It is also the origin of the "Andes" mountains making Atlantis the perfect name for the continent we today call South America.
Inca name for one quarter of their empire was "Antisuyo" - kingdom of the Antis Indians.

The above 50 points show that the basis for Plato's tale of Atlantis comes from a people and region in South America. These points match in remarkable detail the Altiplano in Bolivia including such rare features as the plain being "midway along the longest side of the continent", the metal, orichalcum, considered by Sir Desmond Lee to be imaginery but which in fact exists there as a natural alloy and other factors such as the first inhabitants being born in pairs.
The story can be proven to be true up to a point, i.e. the level rectangular plain with the island capital which was originally a low mountain where the god of the sea married one of the locals, then broke it off to make it impregnable to man, creating rings of land and sea etc and it's subsequent destruction by earthquakes and floods.

The metals used to plate the walls of the city, gold, silver, copper, tin and orichalcum all exist here in plentiful supply as not found elsewhere in the world.

Even elephants belong to South America in the form of mastodons, remains of which, along with remains of trees have recently been found on the shores of Lake Titicaca.

More out of place is the description supposedly in the centre of the larger ring of land of the "racecourse laid out for horses" since riding horses were unknown in the Americas prior to the Conquest. Similarly "and round about it, on this side and on that, were barracks for the greater part of the spearmen; but the guard-house of the more trusty of them was posted in the smaller circle, which was nearer the acropolis; while those who were the most trustworthy of all had dwellings granted to them within the acropolis round about the persons of the kings." here we have a hint of Plato's political doctrine possibly creeping in while let us consider further his description of the occupants of the plain;

"each leader should provide for war the sixth part of a war-chariot's equipment, so as to make up 10,000 chariots in all, together with two horses and mounted men; also a pair of horses without a car, and attached thereto a combattant with a small shield and for charioteer the rider who springs from horse to horse; and two hoplites; and archers and slingers, two of each; and light-armed slingers and javelin-men, three of each; and four sailors towards the manning of twelve hundred ships."

As mentioned earlier, riding horses were previously unknown in the Americas, as were chariots, but since land armies also attacked Egypt at the time of the Sea Peoples, could this be a description of these land armies? On the other hand, the number of ships involved, 1200, is the same number that sailed against Troy suggesting that the war described which Plato called "a very great exploit, worthy indeed to be accounted the most notable of all exploits, which was performed by this city (Athens)" was perhaps the Trojan War, particularly since he says "9,000 is the sum of years since the war occurred" which if substituting months for years would give us a date of 1260BC - the actual date of the Trojan war.

It seems probable that Plato took an original legend from a people who lived on the Altiplano and it's geographic description and added a few embellishments drawn from other legends, polishing it up in the process to make it worthy of his political dialogues for which he became famous.

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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2007, 02:42:24 am »

Recent studies of the ice cap at Sajama suggest the level of Lake Titicaca has been subject to periodic changes of level over the last 11,500 years with alternating periods of drought and flooding. When the lake is at its maximum level, the water overflows down the river Desaguadero where it then continues to flood the level Altiplano and Lake Poopo.
So, just as people build cities on volcanoes or valley floors subject to flooding, the people occupying the Altiplano next to Lake Poopo have been just as much at risk to be submerged under the waters of the lake as those ancient people whose constructions have now been found under the waters of Lake Titicaca.

And there remains one great city or civilisation known only by legend and which people continue to doubt ever existed. It is the story of a city destroyed by earthquakes and overwhelmed by a great flood, all of which took place in the space of a single day and night.

The name of this city is Atlantis.

Remains of coca have been found in the mummy of Ramses II in Egypt dating to 1200BC.

And the island described above (Plato account)is the island of Cerro Santos Villca at the village of Pampa Aullagas on the southern shore of Lake PoopĂł.

Anyone visiting the island will see that it has been destroyed by the earthquakes mentioned above and is still covered in white, sedimentary lake deposits from the time when the lake was at a higher level.

Behind the village of Pampa Aullagas they will see the remains of an outer ring of land with a gap between for the ships to sail through – exactly as Plato described it. They will also see the wall of stone enclosing the island, the black, red and white stones and the site has been inhabited for a long time by successive cultures. It has a natural source of water as mentioned above and the water is still conducted by channels to concentric cultivated plots – according to a study by a vulcanologist even the soil has been imported to the island to improve the cultivation.
So up to this point, there is nothing outrageous in Plato's story, although Plato said the island sank into the sea, the English philosopher Sir Fancis Bacon said in fact it was the rising waters of the lake which submerged the island – and isn't that just like what happened with the ruins found under Lake Titicaca?
In fact all around Pampa Aullagas are underground springs, so when it rains in another part of the country it can rapidly flood the level Altiplano. And the system of canals Plato mentioned is quite appropriate to the region, indeed when the system of raised fields was restored in the vicinity of Lake Titicaca the presence of water in the small channels raised the local temperature and vastly increased crop production.

The date of Plato's Atlantis has always been a problem since Plato made an error and gave the same date for the founding of Atlantis as he did for the ending of Atlantis (about 9,500BC). But he talked about a war between a confederation of nations which invaded Greece and Egypt and this could correspond to the invasion by the "Sea Peoples" of Egypt around 1220 BC, also the attack by the Greeks upon Troy in 1260 BC which was "the finest of the achievements of the Greeks" which Plato wanted to record – in fact he gives the same number of ships for the fleet of Atlantis as Homer did for the Greek fleet against Troy suggesting that this part of the story was based upon Homer and if we substitute lunar months for years in Plato's account then the "9,000 years" before Solon" becomes 1263BC – the date of the Trojan war.

So it is probable that either Atlantis existed in the period after 9500BC up to 1200BC when the Altiplano had varying water levels due to the climatic changes or alternatively it was overwhelmed by the waters of Lake Coipasa when the entire Altiplano became a giant inland sea in 11,000BC, since prior to that the land would have been cultivable, free of the salt salars and the climate 6 degrees warmer.

Finally, it is easy to dismiss Atlantis as merely a "co-incidence" on the Altiplano, but there is one further factor regarding the site at Pampa Aullagas - from the native Aymara and Quechua the name actually means sunken pampa or sunken level plain.

Atlantis never was a sunken continent in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, or some imaginary creation of Plato or cinematic fantasy of Hollywood, but in reality is based upon an indigenous Andean culture.

And at the end of the day, Atlantis was simply overwhelmed by climate change and natural disasters typical of the Altiplano.
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2007, 02:44:43 am »

hemes > Science > Life Sciences > Collection & Preservation > Mummification > Mummification in Other Parts of the World

Outside Egypt, in such widely separated places as the Aleutian Islands, the Canary Islands, China, and the countries now composing what was the Inca civilization, bodies preserved by various artificial means have been found. The venerated mummies of the Inca kings were destroyed by the Spanish. The Chinchoros culture of the Northern Chilean coast practiced artificial mummification around 5000–3000 B.C., and around 4000 B.C., corpses were deliberately salted at La Paloma, in central Peru. Pre-Columbian burials on the arid coast of Peru and Chile, often wrapped in textiles, tended to become naturally mummified. In the late 1990s a cache of late prehistoric mummies of the Chachapoyas culture was found in a rock shelter in humid Northeastern Peru. In 1974 in the Changsha area of China, an embalmed woman, later identified as a matron of the Han dynasty, was disinterred, along with many artifacts, from an air- and watertight tomb, in a remarkably well-preserved state. In Ürümqi (Urumchi), the capital of Xinjiang (Chinese Turkistan), other exceptionally well-preserved mummies, dating back as far as 4,000 years and having European features, have posed a mystery to anthropolgists; some believe they may be Tokharians, members of a so-called lost tribe of Indo-Europeans known from later inscriptions.

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Mummification in Peru was actually being practiced before it was being practiced in Egypt.

Note, the practice was also performed later in the Canary Islands as well.

The step pyramids in the Canaries actually resemble those in South America more than they do Egypt. It could also be that the oldest pyramids in South America have been misdated and actually pre-date those in Egypt.
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2007, 02:46:38 am »


Some people believe every single word of Plato's account to be true, while other people believe every single word to be totally false. Yet there are small details, like the mysterious alloy called "Orichalcum" which one translator, Sir Desmond Lee considered to be "a completely imaginary metal" but actually exists in the Andes as an alloy of gold and copper. Here is what Karen Olsen Bruhhs writing in "Ancient South America" has to say about it... "Copper and copper alloy objects were routinely gilded or silvered, the original colour apparently not being much valued. The gilded copper objects were often made of an alloy which came to be very important in all of South and Central American metallurgy: tumbaga. This is a gold-copper alloy which is significantly harder than copper, but which retains its flexibility when hammered. It is thus ideally suited to the formation of elaborate objects made of hammered sheet metal. In addition, it casts well and melts at a lower temperature than copper, always a consideration when fuel sources for a draught were the wind and men's lungs. The alloy could be made to look like pure gold by treatment of the finished face with an acid solution to dissolve the copper, and then by hammering or polishing to join the gold, giving a uniformly gold surface."

The process was further explained and demonstrated by Adam Hart-Davis in his programme "What The Ancients Did For Us" screened by the "Open University" (BBC2) 2nd March 2005. Since gold was not used as a currency, it was valued more for its colour and beauty, gold being the "sweat of the sun" and silver being the "tears of the moon." Taking a small piece of Tumbaga consisting of 50% gold and 50% copper, the alloy was hammered into the shape of a miniature mask suitable for mounting on a finger ring.
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2007, 02:48:52 am »

The legend of Tunapa (Poseidon). Apologies for printing the whole thing but it is actually quite scarce on the web and this will be one of the few places one can find it:

Bolivian Legend and Plato’s story of Atlantis ….What Plato says in the beginning…In the centre of the level rectangular plain at a distance of 50 stades from the sea was a mountain that was low on all sides. Theron dwelt Cleito, and Poseidon being smitten with desire for her wedded her, and to make the hill whereon she dwelt impregnable he broke it off all round about, and he made circular belts of land and sea enclosing one another alternately, which he carved as it were out of the midst of the island. The island later disappeared into the sea in a single day of earthquakes and floods.

Poseidon… Greek name for the god of the sea and of earthquakes.

Tunapa...Bolivian name for the god of rivers and lakes.

Pampa Aullagas. Area surrounding a low mountain with broken off rings of land and formerly sea, destroyed and submerged by earthquakes, located at the southern end of Lake Poopo.

In the Greek legend, it is Poseidon, god of the sea who marries a woman living on a hill and creates the ringed island of Atlantis. But Plato says the legend was given Greek names to make it agreeable to his readers. In Bolivian legend, it is Tunapa, god of the sea (lakes and rivers) who created the ringed formation at Pampa Aullagas.

The following extracts show how the story varied from place to place, Tunapa sometimes being seen as a male god and at other times as a female.

From … summary

"Thunupa appears in different guises -- godlike and man-like. I explore what it might mean to have the same name applied to a female mountain peak in the south who is wedded to a man/god/ mountain who is the highest peak in Condo's territory.

…In several chronicles the god Thunupa is a god who leaves the region of Lake Titicaca. He sails down the Desaguadero River (opening up the route as he goes), ending up in exile in Lake Poopo, where he sinks

In the legend of Azanaques and Thunapa, gender, marriage, and the violence of husband against wife frame the story of their relationship and point to a link between the behavior of gods and humans.

Bouysse-Cassagne, indicating that Thunupa was a god venerated in the sixteenth century by Aymara speakers, notes that Thunupa may have well existed in earlier times (1988: 77). Wachtel (1990) claims even greater antiquity for Thunupa than for Viracocha, arguing that Thunupa may be a pre-Aymara god, perhaps of Puquina origin. Thunupa, thought to be especially important to the area round Lake Titicaca, is particularly associated with water (Molina R. n.d.). Wachtel describes him as the maker of terrestrial water.

this altiplano water course system. The travels of Thunupa also mark what Wachtel calls the "aquatic axis" of the altiplano from Lake Titicaca to the great salt pans of southern Bolivia

On this watercourse Thunupa went sailing until "the Aullagas" [another name for Lake Poopo] where "the waters vanish into the bowels of the earth" …..

Thunupa was deposited on the shores of Lake Poopo to take up residence alongside Azanaques

From "La Ruta Tarapaca" …summary. "According to these legends the old Asanaques married a woman called Tunapa."

"Tunapa decided to rest in the region of Quillacas, where she built an oven in order to cook, thus forming the peaks of Santa Barbara and San Juan Mallku, where later the actual village of Quillacas was founded.

The following day, she headed to the west, to cross the River Marquez, Tunapa left one of her sandals in a place today recognised by a small mound known as Sato. On the other side of the river she decided to rest leaving traces of her resting place in the formations of the peak Pedro Santos Willka, site of the people and village of Pampa Aullagas."

Inca Creation Myth from "The Incas" pub Blackwell 2002

"In ancient times before there was light the creator Wiraqocha Pachayachachic (creator of all things) fashioned a race of giants to see if it would be good to make humans on that scale. He saw that they were too large, and so he made humans his own size. But they were filled with hubris and greed, so the Creator turned some to stone, and others to diverse forms, and some were swallowed up by the earth or sea. And he caused a great flood to cover the land, destroying all that was upon it, save for three men, whom he saved to help create humans anew.

From …..abridged version

Magazine: Anthropological Quarterly, October 1999
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2007, 05:29:02 am »

Chinchorros – The Worlds Oldest Mummies

The mummies of the Chinchorros have been found near the border of present-day Peru and Chile along the Pacific coast. The principal towns between which the mummies have been found are Ilo (Peru) to Arica, Iquique, and Antofagasta (all Chile). The mummies appear to have been made first in the area around Arica.

The Chinchorros may well have been the first people in the world to practice mummification. They preserved their dead beginning about 5000 B.C., reaching a peak in 3000 B.C.--around the same time that the Egyptians began experimenting with mummification.

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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2007, 10:32:43 am »

Practice of farming reaches back farther than thought
Ancient people living in Panama were processing and eating domesticated species of plants like maize, manioc, and arrowroot at least as far back as 7,800 years ago – much earlier than previously thought – according to new research by a University of Calgary archaeologist.

One of the most hotly debated issues in the discipline of archaeology is how and why certain human societies switched from hunting and gathering to producing their own food through agriculture. Dr. Ruth Dickau, a post-doctoral researcher in the U of C's department of archaeology, has used a new technique called starch grain analysis to recover microscopic residues of plants directly off the stone tools that people were using in Panama 3,000 to 7,800 years ago.

"These results add to the growing evidence that the earliest beginnings of farming were not centred in arid highland regions like central Mexico and the Peruvian Andes as once believed, but in the lowland areas and humid forests of the American tropics," Dickau says.

"What is particularly interesting is that these crops were originally domesticated outside of Panama; maize was domesticated in Mexico, and manioc and arrowroot in South America. Panama, as a relatively narrow land-bridge between the two American continents, was an important route for the human spread of food crops, and clearly a region where agriculture was practiced very early in history."
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« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2007, 09:45:21 pm »

I have maize originating in the "new world" at around 8 to 6000 bc., mummification occuring prior to when it began in Egypt and Caral, the first city, occuring at around the time when the Giza complex was said to be built (traditional dating).  Of course, there was evidence of large population centers in South America many years before archaeologists currently give them credit for.

It's clear that the civilizations there thrived to at least the level of their contempoaries in Africa and Europe.  The only reason they have been ignored is through a cultural bias.
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2007, 01:00:19 am »

Native American populations share gene signature

 * 14 February 2007
    * news service

A distinctive, repeating sequence of DNA found in people living at the eastern edge of Russia is also widespread among Native Americans, according to a new study. The finding lends support to the idea that Native Americans descended from a common founding population.,316.0.html

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« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2007, 10:41:01 pm »

The Atlantis Trail

It took five expeditions on site following to find a location which matched Plato's mountain which was low on all sides and in the centre of the plain next to the sea. This site is presently called Pampa Aullagas at the southern end of Lake Poopo.

Above left, traditional drawing of the plain and canal system with Atlantis at its centre.
Above right, Drawing of the Altiplano showing the location of Pampa Aullagas where the city should be.
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« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2007, 10:42:05 pm »

Above, high resolution satellite photo showing ancient parallel canals on the Altiplano near Lake Poopo
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« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2007, 10:44:04 pm »


Above left, traditional drawing of the city with rings of land and sea.
Above right, Illustration of Pampa Aullagas showing remains of rings of land and sandy canals when filled with water..

air photo showing sandy canals when filled with water
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