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Plato's Atlantis My Theory

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Qoais
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« Reply #1560 on: October 05, 2009, 09:40:55 am »

Back in this thread somewhere, I talked about T. Robsang Lampa, a Tibetan monk who, along with some elders found a cave which he called "Cave of the Ancients".  The cave was a time capsule, wherein someone had stored machinery and technology for the future as man was at war and it was not known if he would completely destroy himself, but if he didn't, this cave would contain items showing their stage of development and would be able to be used when some future human found the cave and understood the knowledge.  He talked about seeing a "film" in 3D (like a hologram but looking real) activated by them stepping in certain areas (motion detectors) and what the film depicted. 

The one thing that stuck out in my mind was what he called ships like floating islands, going back and forth across the ocean. 

To me, he was not talking about the past - he was talking about the future.  Today. Or at least, today's future.  Those would be the luxurious cruise liners he saw, plying the oceans.  I say this because there is no evidence whatsoever so far, that such things existed in our ancient times. 

Perhaps Plato too, saw the future instead of the past.
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« Reply #1561 on: October 10, 2009, 10:05:47 pm »

I know I've seen this somewhere before, but it seems to have been given an up-date.

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« Reply #1562 on: October 11, 2009, 07:38:40 pm »

The more I think about it, the more I think that it is through our super conscious that we actually "evolve".  As in moving forward with knowledge. 

If you think about it, a lot of excellent "discoveries" were made by accident, a lot of inventions were created by people who had little or no schooling and people who are having difficulty finding an answer to a problem, "sleep on it' and have an answer in the morning.  Why is that?

We are not consciously thinking when we are asleep, so how is it that we can find solutions to difficult problems overnight?  I believe the super-conscious, or the soul, goes in search of a teacher who can help him out.  The soul visits the learning centers on different planes to find the necessary information required.  I don't think it's just psychics who do this.  I think when people are busy with their minds, working on solving things, the active mind keeps on working, even when the physical body shuts down.  I think it does go in search of the information and although doesn't remember in the morning, the answer is there.

For myself, I don't believe the Egyptians had enough "practical experience" in building megaliths, to build the GP.  They had been building little brick mastabas over a hole in the ground as a tomb, then they built a step pyramid, which was just a bigger pile of bricks, and then they tried the bent pyramid, which was bent because it wasn't engineered properly, and then finally after a number of tries, (over hundreds of years) we get the GP.  Now, only the architects and engineers would have the critical knowledge of how to build a pyramid, but it's not like they were being mass produced was it?  Life spans weren't all that long back then, and one had to wait until a new pharaoh came along, before they could build another one.  Where does all the experience come from then, for the next guy to build a pyramid, if he actually hadn't done one before?    I don't think modern folks really understand what had to be known, to build the GP. 

I think that back in those days, the priests and higher ups used mind altering drugs to access the books of knowledge or akashic records or higher vibrational planes to learn what they needed to know.  It could have happened with someone having a dream, as I thin it was Thoth who said he dreamed the knowledge of all the stones, and how to quarry them and how to transport them and which stone was needed for what purpose. 

I don't think this happened just in Egypt either.  Man built what he understood.  Pyramid shapes.  Even if he could read the akashic records and learn how to build a modern skyscraper, he couldn't have done it because he didn't have the basics yet.  Pyramids could be done, because man was capable of cutting and moving rock.  Other knowledge was gleaned a bit at a time.  The bronze age, the iron age, the age of steel.  How do we know, that it wasn't someone who had "dreamed" the knowledge, who developed these things? Someone who could understand what they saw and apply it "in the morning".
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« Reply #1563 on: October 12, 2009, 12:10:53 am »

I don't know how many times I've read that passage about the prince who would be king having the dream by the Sphinx, but it didn't click until recently, that in hindsight, looking back at discoveries that have been made, and just how cultures developed, it's easy to see that it is when we're sleeping that we seem to gain extra knowledge.  This suggests to me, that there most definitely exists higher planes of consciousness/existence and that "souls" dwell therein.  It explains why people think they're "flying" because of the out-of-body experience of seeing your physical body as your spiritual body rises.  In ancient times people may have thought they were still in their body but that some "god" had taken them traveling and was showing them things, when really, it was THEM doing the traveling and not necessarily still on this plane of existence.  A lot of people talk about "spirit guides" who advise them, and I don't suppose the ancients were any different.  Having a personal spirit guide would be like having contact with a "god" to them and they would work to appease the spirit guide.  I think some "spirit guide" was having a grand old time with making the Egyptians build the pyramids.  It probably wasn't done for the pharaoh at all.  It was likely done on the advice of some spirit guide TO the pharaoh, telling him he would travel to the stars upon his death if he built the damn thing.

The Egyptians believed that the divine powers frequently made known their will to them by means of

p. 214

dreams, and they attached considerable importance to them; the figures of the gods and the scenes which they saw when dreaming seemed to them to prove the existence of another world which was not greatly unlike that already known to them. The knowledge of the art of procuring dreams and the skill to interpret them were greatly prized in Egypt as elsewhere in the East, and the priest or official who possessed such gifts sometimes rose to places of high. honour in the state, as we may see from the example of Joseph, 1 for it was universally believed that glimpses of the future were revealed to man in dreams. As instances of dreams recorded in the Egyptian texts may be quoted those of Thothmes IV., king of Egypt about B.C. 1450, and Nut-Amen, king of the Eastern Sūdān and Egypt, about B.C. 670. A prince, according to the stele which he set up before the breast of the Sphinx at Gizeh, was one day hunting near this emblem of Rā-Harmachis, and he sat down to rest under its shadow and fell asleep and dreamed a dream. In it the god appeared to him, and, having declared that he was the god Harmachis-Khepera-Rā-Temu, promised him that if he would clear away from the Sphinx, his own image, the drift sand in which it was becoming buried, he would give to him the sovereignty of the lands of the South and of the North, i.e., of all Egypt. In due course the prince became king of Egypt under the title of Thothmes IV., and the stele

p. 215

which is dated on the 19th day of the month Hathor of the first year of Thothmes IV. proves that the royal dreamer carried out the wishes of the god. 1 Of Nut-Amen, the successor of the great Piānkhi who came down from Gebel Barkal and conquered all Egypt from Syene to the sea, we read that in the first year of his reign he one night dreamed a dream wherein he saw two serpents, one on his right hand and the other on his left; when he awoke they had disappeared. Having asked for an interpretation of the dream he was told:--"The land of the South is thine, and thou shalt have dominion over the land of the North: the White Crown and the Red Crown shall adorn thy head. The length and the breadth of the land shall be given unto thee, and the god Amen, the only god, shall be with thee." 2 The two serpents were the symbols of the goddesses Nekhebet and Uatchet, the mistresses of the South and North respectively. As the result of his dream Nut-Amen invaded Egypt successfully and brought back much spoil, a portion of which he dedicated to the service of his god Amen.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ema/ema09.htm
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« Reply #1564 on: October 12, 2009, 02:56:31 am »

No wonder it seemed that the gods actually took part in the affairs of men, especially their wars.  We know spirits CAN be harmful when angry and cause bad things to happen.  WHERE those spirits reside is a question.  Are they on a higher plane of vibration and do they actually have the form they project or are they between planes?  Seems they have to be fairly close relatively speaking if they can actually cause disturbances on the earthly plane.  Makes one wonder what they gain from interfering in such a manner.  Where did they come from in the first place and why are they there?  Why don't they move on? 

Maybe someday we'll know all the answers.

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« Reply #1565 on: October 13, 2009, 01:35:23 pm »

I've posted this in another thread, although I think we should be discussing this in Nikas' thread as it is his theory that brought this up again.

Scholars debate as to whether Atlantis was real or allegory.  It is my opinion, that it was both.

Plato says he's using Solon's notes to write the dialogs.  Fine.  The Egyptians kept wonderful records and it's possible that while chatting about what they knew - and Solon was on a mission to gain knowledge wasn't he? - they talked about a peoples to the west of them and described what THEY had been told about them.  Now according to Siculus, it seems that whoever wrote the history he was copying for his works, took it for granted that the Atlantians were located near the Amazons.  It was not a great mystery to THEM where the Atlantians lived because after all, theirs was the land where the gods were born and where everything was as it should be.  In other words, perfect.  How could it be otherwise - in the land of the gods' birth?  Plato was striving to teach the Greeks to be perfect.  Who else would he hold up for an example, but those who already WERE supposedly perfect?  The story of Atlantis is Plato's idea of perfection, before it deteriorated.  He's trying to point out that yes, even perfection can be destroyed if it's allowed.  So we get this wonderful description of Atlantis, Plato's idea of the ideal.  Everything necessary to luxurious living was available if they wanted to use it, but being of a more spiritual bent, they chose not to (until later). 

Now I'm absolutely dense when it comes to the origin of the gods, and I don't know who first wrote about the gods and their achievements so correct me if I'm wrong here.  Was it Plato or someone else who told about the God Poseidon mating with Clieto and having 10 sons?  Then, according to someone - I don' know who - one of those sons had 10 sons (one of Atlas's brothers that is) and they became the Titans.  Right?  So was it Plato who actually started this myth, or was it in existence previously?  It seems the Greeks (from hind site looking back) believed Poseidon mated with Clieto and had 10 sons, but nothing was said about their home life or the land they lived in until Plato described it.

We must keep in mind that Plato had been asked to tell a story of stories, one that would outshine all the stories they'd told as children to earn awards. He wouldn't have been asked if he wasn't good at it in the first place.   Everyone says Plato was not a historian he was a philosopher and because of that, he got things mixed up and had no imagination.  I say because he was a philosopher and knew the minds of men, he would have had a fabulous imagination and knew how to get through to the mind set of his times.  Not only that, he had in mind what would be a perfect society.  He knew what his peers wanted to hear and he did a fantastic job of marrying the two ideals together and still be true to his own innate beliefs of a perfect society.  Who better to choose for his example of an ideal, but the gods themselves?  Plato more than achieved what he'd been asked to do. 

He told the story of all time when you think about it, as we're still trying to find the place he talked about. Here's a man that took it upon himself to actually describe the home of the gods.  Whether anything like this was actually in Solon's notes, we'll never know, but if you're going to tell an award winning story, why not start at the beginning, with the land of the gods?  Atlantis, where in the beginning they were spiritual and peaceful.  Just what Plato was hoping the Greeks would aspire to. 

What I question is the war because I don't see such a thing actually happening especially in the time line Plato gives.  Also, altho is he telling the Greeks that they should change and try to be perfection, it was the Greeks that supposedly won out against the people who had been perfection in the past.  Therefore, what would be the point of the Greeks becoming like the Atlantians, when the Atlantians lost?  He also shows that perfection cannot be maintained, so why should they try for it in the first place? 
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« Reply #1566 on: October 13, 2009, 01:37:54 pm »

If an expedition was undertaken to find this lost city called Cerne, we might be able to find a few missing links in the story.  Or the Amazon city of Cherronesus that sunk somewhere near the Mt. Atlas near Lake Tritonis.  Perhaps we'd find the bragging pillars at least of Heracles in the mud.
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« Reply #1567 on: October 13, 2009, 05:17:24 pm »

G'day people,
Sungate, I have to pretty well agree with a lot of Nikas's theory, because I actually worked on it for quite a while myself, and without knowing the proper translations, could see how his conclusion is correct.  When we were back on Robert Sarmast's forum, we chatted about this and I too, did research on just where the pillars of Hercules was at the time, and found that no one knew in Plato's time where they really were originally, just that it was an expression used to denote "you can travel no farther".  I researched into where Hercules supposedly put up his bragging pillars and found that the one that "fit the bill" was the one he erected in the place where he destroyed the city of the Amazons.  Cherronesus I believe it was called.  From reading Diodours Siculus, it seems the lay of the land as they knew it, is not what it actually was.  Therefore, I found that Cherronesus was near modern day Tunis. 

One has to read the passage over and over and stay focused but Siculus says:

"As mythology relates, their home was on an island which, because it was in the west, was called Hespera, and it lay in the marsh Tritonis.  This marsh was near the ocean which surrounds the earth and received its name from a certain river Triton which emptied int it: and this marsh was also near Ethiopia and that mountain by the shore of the ocean which is the highest of those in the vicinity and impinges upon the ocean and is called by the Greeks, Atlas.  The island mentioned above was of great size and full of fruit-bearing trees of every kind, from which the natives secured their food.  It contained also a multitude of flocks and herds, namely, of goats and sheep, from which the possessors received milk and meat for their sustenance: but grain the nations used not at all because the use of this fruit of the earth had not yet been discovered among them."

So - taking the first line we see a great number of things that fit with Nikas' theory.  There was a large island in the west.  Called Hespera, BECAUSE it was in the west.  However we also find that it lay in the marsh Tritonis, and Tritonis was near the ocean that surrounds the earth.  But also in this same place we have the famous mount Atlas.  I've posted this in my thread Plato's Atlantis My Theory, but since that thread is over a hundred pages now with my ramblings, I will re-post a picture of the area in question:



I took this picture from Georges site, at first just to show where he was claiming Atlantis was, and then it dawned on me that it helped Nikas' theory as well:
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« Reply #1568 on: October 13, 2009, 05:23:02 pm »

In the picture in the previous post you will see a huge circular indentation on the eastern end of the Atlas mountains.  This is the Marsh Tritonis.  I did some research on that as well, and I could re post it here but it would take me some time to go back in my thread to find it and I kind of don't think this thread is really the place we should be talking about this.  Nikas has a thread I believe and we should have a go at his theory in his thread.

Anyway, we can see from the picture that at the time Siculus wrote, (and he says he was copying from earlier writers) that they thought things were in places where they weren't!!  so if we accept everything at face value for the times - like what they supposedly knew and what they understood and what they assumed and what they deducted from tales of sailors etc., we (I) find that they did think the Eastern end of the Med. was a harbour and that the Western end was part of or connected to, the world ocean.  Therefore, they thought that at the point where the water narrowed at Malta  (Sicily) was the passage to the ocean, therefore, the pillars of Heracles "as the Greeks called them" (in other words a demarcation point) were at that point.   Looking at the picture I posted, we see that this fits more or less with the story that Hercules put up pillars where he razed Cherronesus.

He says the island was of great size and in describing it's bounty, more or less describes Atlantis.  Then Siculus says:

"Setting out from the city of Cherronesus, the account continues, the amazons embarked upon great ventures, a longing having come over them to invade many parts of the inhabited world.  The first people against whom they advanced, according to the tale, was the Atlantians, the most civilized men among the inhabitants of those regions, who dwelt in a prosperous country and possess great cities: it was among them, we are told, that mythology places the birth of the gods, in the regions which lie along the shore of the ocean, in this respect agreeing with those among the Greeks who relate legends, and about this we shall speak in detail a little later." 

Continuing:  After a pitched battle with the Atlantians in their city of Cerne they defeated the Atlantians and took over that city.  They killed the men and youths, and took into slavery everyone else in the city, so the rest of the Atlantians capitualted and said they'd do whatever she wanted.  She behaved honorably toward them then and:

"whereupon the Atlantians presented her with magnificent presents and by public decree voted to her notable honours, and she in return accepted their courtesy and in addition promised that she would show kindness to their nation"

(Forgot to metion this earlier)  "The story is also told that the marsh Tritonis disappeared from sight in the course of an earthquake, when those parts of it which lay towards the ocean were torn asunder."

If you look at the picture, you will see a Cherronesus (translated - peninsula) sticking straight out into the Med at the eastern end of the Atlas mountains, towards Sicily.  We know at one time there was a land bridge to Sicily, but I've had a number of people argue as to just when it collapsed.  I suspect some of it broke away from time to time, and I think that in known history they may have always been a passage there, but farther back, I suspect the passage was narrower and shallower.  Again, that thing that picks me the most - timelines!!   

I would also like to mention that although the Amazons supposedly lived on an island, as did the Atlantians, they were likely islands within the marsh, as again, if  go back to my thread, I've posted where it is said that one can walk through the water to get to other islands in the marsh and then I suppose, to the "continent" or terra firma.


(I am copying my posts from the thread Atlantis airs Oct 7th as I don't feel that's the proper place for them, and besides, it is MY theory!!)  I think this could be what very likely happened and any embellishments and far out additions to the story make it to the point of ridiculous.  If we take what we think they knew, what they've indicated in their writings, that they knew - psychic trips aside!! Wink well - perhaps the simplest answer IS the answer)
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« Reply #1569 on: October 13, 2009, 05:29:51 pm »

Ok - I'll try to slow down a bit and make some sense!!

Yes, I believe that an erroneous translation has been perpetuated over the centuries.  When people started becoming interested  in Atlantis after Ignatious Donnelly brought it to the forefront again, THEN moderns started questioning the translations and we've been debating it ever since.  Somewhere in this forum there is a thread with the complete translation by Atalante, and the determinitives are explained regarding the language.  I was totally surprised myself when I read the differences in the translations by the different writers, Bury, Jowett, and others.   It changed the whole scenario.

My previous post was a bit disjointed so I hope you could follow along.  What I'm trying to say, is that if we take what we think was known at the time, with no embellishments, and no assuming things beyond their capacity of understanding, I believe that the two ends of the Med. were considered two bodies of water, joined by a narrow channel.  However, the western one would have been considered part of the world ocean because they thought that whatever land was west of that channel, was islands - which it isn't.  So we in our modern times, knowing that it isn't, try to place an island way out yonder in the Atlantic ocean.  I believe Nikas is correct when he says that only two "contients" or "mainlands" were thought to exist.  One on the north of the Med. and one on the South, and the two were surrounded by the world ocean, of which, the western end of the Med. (Atlas's ocean) was a part.  They did believe in the ancient times, that they could access the world ocean by going east as well.  Siculus in his works, copied from Homer as well.  Here is what is known as the Homerian map, although it's a copy of a copy of a copy etc., as apparently we don't have the original, but I think it might be safe to assume that the copy people didn't screw the whole thing up totally!!


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« Reply #1570 on: October 13, 2009, 05:30:48 pm »

Scholars debate as to whether Atlantis was real or allegory.  It is my opinion, that it was both.

Plato says he's using Solon's notes to write the dialogs.  Fine.  The Egyptians kept wonderful records and it's possible that while chatting about what they knew - and Solon was on a mission to gain knowledge wasn't he? - they talked about a peoples to the west of them and described what THEY had been told about them.  Now according to Siculus, it seems that whoever wrote the history he was copying for his works, took it for granted that the Atlantians were located near the Amazons.  It was not a great mystery to THEM where the Atlantians lived because after all, theirs was the land where the gods were born and where everything was as it should be.  In other words, perfect.  How could it be otherwise - in the land of the gods' birth?  Plato was striving to teach the Greeks to be perfect.  Who else would he hold up for an example, but those who already WERE supposedly perfect?  The story of Atlantis is Plato's idea of perfection, before it deteriorated.  He's trying to point out that yes, even perfection can be destroyed if it's allowed.  So we get this wonderful description of Atlantis, Plato's idea of the ideal.  Everything necessary to luxurious living was available if they wanted to use it, but being of a more spiritual bent, they chose not to (until later). 

Now I'm absolutely dense when it comes to the origin of the gods, and I don't know who first wrote about the gods and their achievements so correct me if I'm wrong here.  Was it Plato or someone else who told about the God Poseidon mating with Clieto and having 10 sons?  Then, according to someone - I don' know who - one of those sons had 10 sons (one of Atlas's brothers that is) and they became the Titans.  Right?  So was it Plato who actually started this myth, or was it in existence previously?  It seems the Greeks (from hind site looking back) believed Poseidon mated with Clieto and had 10 sons, but nothing was said about their home life or the land they lived in until Plato described it.

We must keep in mind that Plato had been asked to tell a story of stories, one that would outshine all the stories they'd told as children to earn awards. He wouldn't have been asked if he wasn't good at it in the first place.   Everyone says Plato was not a historian he was a philosopher and because of that, he got things mixed up and had no imagination.  I say because he was a philosopher and knew the minds of men, he would have had a fabulous imagination and knew how to get through to the mind set of his times.  Not only that, he had in mind what would be a perfect society.  He knew what his peers wanted to hear and he did a fantastic job of marrying the two ideals together and still be true to his own innate beliefs of a perfect society.  Who better to choose for his example of an ideal, but the gods themselves?  Plato more than achieved what he'd been asked to do. 

He told the story of all time when you think about it, as we're still trying to find the place he talked about. Here's a man that took it upon himself to actually describe the home of the gods.  Whether anything like this was actually in Solon's notes, we'll never know, but if you're going to tell an award winning story, why not start at the beginning, with the land of the gods?  Atlantis, where in the beginning they were spiritual and peaceful.  Just what Plato was hoping the Greeks would aspire to. 

What I question is the war because I don't see such a thing actually happening especially in the time line Plato gives.  Also, altho is he telling the Greeks that they should change and try to be perfection, it was the Greeks that supposedly won out against the people who had been perfection in the past.  Therefore, what would be the point of the Greeks becoming like the Atlantians, when the Atlantians lost?  He also shows that perfection cannot be maintained, so why should they try for it in the first place? 
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« Reply #1571 on: October 13, 2009, 05:31:20 pm »

Diodorus Siculus Book III 56: 1-4

In the above noted writings, Siculus goes on to tell of the genesis of the gods of Atlantis. 

He says Uranus was their first god, who had 45 sons from a number of wives and of these, eighteen were by Titaea, each of them bearing a distinct name, but all of them as a group were called after their mother, Titans.  Uranus also had daughters.  The eldest Basileia far excelled the others in both prudence and understanding, reared all her brothers, showing them collectively a mother's kindness (their mother had died).  She united in marriage with her favorite brother Hyperion and they had two children Helius and Selene.  Her other brothers, the Titans, fearing that Hyperion would divert the royal power to himself , they killed him and cast Helius into the Eridanus river.  (a footnote marks that the Eridanus river is the Po river - the Po river being in Italy)  The sister Selene who loved her brother, threw herself off the roof, but their mother Basileia while searching for her son's body along the banks of the river, fell into a swoon in which she had a vision in which her son Helius stood over her and told her not to mourn as the Titans would get what was coming to them for their crime.  He said that he and his sister by some divine providence, would be transformed into immortal natures, since that which had formerly been called the "holy fire" in the heavens would be called by men Helius ("the sun") and that addressed as "mene" would be called Selene ("the moon").  When she was aroused from the swoon, and after telling the crown what had happened to her and her children, she became frenzied, and seizing such of her daughter's playthings as could make a noise, she began to wander over the land, with her hair hanging free, inspired by the noise of the kettledrums and cymbals, so that those who saw her were struck with astonishment.  And all men were filled with pity at her misfortune and some were clinging to her body, when there came a mighty storm and continuous crashes of thunder and lightning: and in the midst of this Basileia passed from sight, whereupon the corwds of people, amazed at this reversal of fortune, transferred the names and the honours of Helius and Selene to the stars of the sky, and as for their mother, they considered her to be a goddess and erected altars to her, and imitating the the incidents of her life by the poinding of the kettledrums and the clash of the cymbals they rendered unto her in this way sacrifices and all other honours. 

60.  After the death of Hyperion, the myth relates, the kingdom was divided among the sons of Uranus, the most renowned of whom were Atlas and Cronus.  Of these sons Atlas received as his part the regions on the coast of the ocean, and he not only gave the name of Atlantians to his peoples but likewise called the greatest mountain in the land Atlas.  They also say that he perfected the science of astrology and was the first to publish to mankind the doctrine of the sphere, and it was for this reason that the idea was held that the entire heavens were supported upon the shoulders of Atlas, the myth darkly hinting in this way at his discovery and description of the sphere. 

So in the above, we see that the "gods" already lived in Italy (so would have power there) and that the sons spread out from there, splitting the further lands amongst themselves, but it was only the children of Atlas that were called Atlantians.  Where we start to see a little problem is that I think people think that his brother's descendants (brother Eumelous who was given the land "facing" the pillars of Hercules) were also Atlantians.  I don't think so (although I could be wrong of course).  We also have a major bone of contention with the word "facing" in the translations.  It can also mean "beside", "in front of", and I can't remember what else.  Perhaps Nikas can help us with that.
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« Reply #1572 on: October 13, 2009, 05:41:25 pm »

I've vacillated before between Georgeous being right and Nikas being right, and yet I think they're both sort of right.

If we look at Homer's map, (Homer ca: 8th century BC) we get an idea of what they thought the land looked like in Homer's time.  By the time Plato comes on the scene (we have to each make up our minds as to what Plato knew for sure or not) they had become more aware of what the land at the western end of the Med looked like, but by that time, the history was already written.  How does one now write about a land, that to their own knowledge, didn't exist before in their past? They have now come to know that the land was solid and not islands, but the story was already written.

Here is a map by Hecataeus (ca  550–c. 476 BC)  We don't know if Plato knew of this map or not.  Plato was c. (428/427 BC – 348/347 BC)

 
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« Reply #1573 on: October 13, 2009, 05:58:30 pm »

Now I don't know who makes the mistake but we know that according to Plato, Atlas was given the land wherein is the Atlas mountain.  (because he names it)  The parents are from Italy along the river Po.  The Atlas mountain is on the other side of the Med., and according to Plato, "ships were not as yet".  So - (again the blasted time line is wrong) - how did Atlas get to his land on the other side?  Do we assume he harnessed his fathers sea horses and went that-a-way? Do we assume he named a mountain Atlas somewhere along the river Po?  He did after all, receive as his inheritance, his mother's home place.  His brother Eumelous, receiving the land that "faced" (whatever) the Pillars of Heracles.  (We have a number of different time lines here because of course Heracles comes into the story later, but as I've said, the Greeks use the expression "Pillars of Heracles" to denote a place of no further passage. 

So we're still in a bit of quandary as to who got what piece of land, but as far as I'm concerned, we are still inside the Mediterranean Sea.
Therefore, Eumelous recieved the land that was closest to the narrow passage that was thought to be "lands end" which would have been at Sicily/Malta.  Atlas supposedly, was still back in Italy at mom's place. 

If anyone wants to jump in here and have a go at straightening this out, please feel free.  I've said it so many times, that Plato has messed up the time lines by saying what he did, and trying to figure out if this is truth or fiction from what he said, I'm leaning again towards fiction.  It may be that he heard a story, or it may be he made it up himself as we've said before, to satisfy all parties concerned.

And don't forget, we have Atlantians on the south side of the Med. as neighbors to the Amazons.  Possible descendants, or whoever said the parents lived along the river Po in Italy, made the mistake. 
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« Reply #1574 on: October 13, 2009, 08:13:56 pm »

Where I was going with this originally, was that whatever the time line, when the gods first dwelled upon the earth, could have been back when the Med was not yet full of water.  Then we'd have to assume that Atlas took control of all the land from his mother's home place, across the Mediterranean plain to the Atlas mountains and possibly Spain as well.    But if he did, then his lands would include Sicily and Malta and his brother Eumelous could not have been given the land "facing" the Pillars of Hercules, unless of course we are talking of the northern lands of the Hyperboreans and the channel to the North Sea through Finland or Sweden (I can't remember which country it was that had this tumultuous chasm that blocked Hercules from traveling further north. ) Although I don't think there's any place in the north called Cadiz or Gades.

So running with this then, if Atlas took his mother's home place on the river Po, then the Temple City would have to be on the river Po and it would have been THIS city that went down beneath the water.  Because Poseidon had already encircled the land with rings of water (channels) and this city then, would have had to be close to the mouth of the river - about what was it - 5 or 6 miles or so?  Because the channel they cut to the ocean was that long.  So this means by the time Atlas took over his mom's place, there had to be water in the western end of the Med and it was Atlas' ocean now.  So when did the Straits of Gibraltar open? Not that it matters, because Plato is all over the place with the time lines, but just so we can figure out how Atlas named the mountain after him.  We have to know how he crossed the water if boats weren't invented yet.  Unless he rode a porpoise or something.  Or, there is another mountain called Atlas in those days.

What this all is showing, is that the land that is being referred to by Plato was not out in what WE call the Atlantic, but the bit of water that was closest to Atlas' dominion and then eventually, the whole outer ocean or world ocean got named the Atlantic.  In his honour no doubt.  But, the point being, then, that when Plato says they held sway over the land of Libya as far as Egypt and Europe as far as Tyrennia (Italy) it was because they already had it from time immemorial.  It would seem then, that they were starting to get really greedy and were going to go after Egypt and Greece as well.  Over time though, their name changed and we no longer knew them in history as Atlantians.  If there was a battle, then it could have been that the Greeks and Atlantians were fighting right in Italy, or close to it when the earthquake struck.  Mind you, it depends on how far a stretch was affected by the quake.  If it was on a fault line, it could run for a thousand miles, so the fighting could have been anywhere along that fault line between Italy and Greece.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 08:33:07 pm by Qoais » Report Spam   Logged

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Logic rules.

"Intellectual brilliance is no guarantee against being dead wrong."
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