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Timaeus on Atlantis in Eight Parallel Editions

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Horus
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« on: September 25, 2007, 03:04:01 pm »

Timaeus on Atlantis in Eight Parallel Editions
Compiled by J. Warren Wells
Representing the most often cited passage. From Timaeus 24D through 25D.
The simplified Greek transliteration maps to English characters in the usual order from alpha to omega thus:
a-b-g-d-e-z-h-q-i-k-l-m-n-x-o-p-r-s-t-u-f-c-y-w

Section 24D:


Bury 1929
Lee 1965
Jowett 1871
Kalkavage 2001
Many, in truth, and great are the achievements of your State, which are a marvel to men as they are here recorded; but there is one which stands out above all both for magnitude and for nobleness. For it is related in our records how once upon a time your State stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant point in the Atlantic ocean, was insolently advancing to attack the whole of Europe, and Asia to boot. Among all the wonderful achievements recorded here of your city, one great act of courage is outstanding. Our records tell how your city checked a great power which arrogantly advanced from its base in the Atlantic Ocean to attack the cities of Europe and Asia.Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean,Now many and great are the deeds of your city that are written down here and that strike people with, yet there is one that rises above them all in magnitude and virtue; for our writings tell of how a great power your city once stopped, which, in its insolence, was advancing against all of Europe together with Asia, having set out from somewhere far out in the Atlantic Ocean.
Zeyl 2000
Taylor 1793
Wells 2005
Greek
Now many great accomplishments of your city recorded here are awe-inspiring, but there is one that surely surpasses them all in magnitude and excellence. The records speak of a vast power that your city once brought to a halt in its insolent march against the whole of Europe and Asia at once; a power that sprang forth from beyond, from the Atlantic Ocean.But though many mighty deeds of your city are contained in our sacred writings, and are admired as they deserve, yet there is one transaction which surpasses all of them in magnitude and virtue. For these writings relate what prodigious strength your city formerly tamed, when a mighty warlike power, rushing from the Atlantis sea, spread itself with hostile fury over all Europe and Asia.Thus many, therefore, great works of the people of your city have been recorded here and are marveled at, but of all these one especially holds greatness and moral excellence. For it is said in the writings, that your city stopped a violent power which was proceeding against Europe and Asia at the same time. It invaded from outside; from out of the Atlantic ocean.polla men oun umwn kai megala erga ths polews thde gegrammena qaumazetai, pantwn mhn en uperecei megeqei kai areth legei gar ta gegrammena, oshn h polis umwn epause pote dunamin ubrei poreuomenhn ama epi pasan eurwphn kai asian, exwqen ormhqeisan ek tou atlantikou pelagous.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 10:26:05 am by Horus » Report Spam   Logged

"For the greater individual is the one who is the servant of all. And to conquer self is greater than taking cities."

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Mark of Australia
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2007, 03:30:47 pm »

Thanks Horus , that is awesome , because that comparison so clearly shows how Atlantis is in the Atlantic,, more than any argument I could think of.

That people manage to get Atlantis in the Mediterranean is ...unforgivable.
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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 01:04:41 pm »

(You're welcome, Mark, and I agree! -H.)

Section 24E:

Bury 1929
Lee 1965
Jowett 1871
Kalkavage 2001
For the ocean there was at that time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles, there lay an island which was larger than Libya3 and Asia together; and it was possible for the travelers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from the islands to the whole of the continent over against them which encompasses that veritable ocean.For in those days the Atlantic was navigable. There was an island opposite the strait which you call the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibraltar), an island larger than Libya (Africa) and Asia combined; from it travelers could in those days reach the other islands, and from them the whole opposite continent which surrounds what can truly be called the ocean. for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean;For at that time the ocean there could be crossed, since an island was situated in front of the mouth that you people call, so you claim, the Pillars of Hercules. The island was bigger than Libya and Asia together, and from it there was access to the other islands for those traveling at that time, and from the islands to the entire opposing continent that surrounds that true sea.
Zeyl 2000
Taylor 1793
Wells 2005
Greek
For at that time this ocean was passable, since it had an island in it in front of the strait that you people say you call the Pillars of Heracles. The island was larger than Libya and Asia combined, and it provided passage to the other islands for people who traveled in those days. From those islands one could then travel to the entire continent on the other side, which surrounds that real sea beyond. For at that time the Atlantic sea was navigable, and had an island before the mouth which is called by you Pillars of Hercules. But the island was greater than both Libya and all Asia together, and afforded an easy passage to other neighbouring islands; as it was likewise easy to pass from those islands to all the continent which borders on this Atlantis sea.For at the time, that ocean was navigable (even though an island stood just outside the straits of the place called, as you Greeks say, the pillars of Heracles; that island being at once greater than Libya and Asia) so that there was access to other islands, and it was possible at that time to travel from those islands onward to that which was beyond; an entire continent that surrounds that veritable ocean.tote gar poreusimon hn to ekei pelagos; nhson gar pro tou stomatos eicen o kaleite, ws fate umeis hrakleos sthlas h de nhsos ama libuhs hn kai asias meizwn, ex hs epibaton epi tas allas nhsous tois tote egigneto poreuomenois, ek de twn nhswn epi thn katantikru pasan hpeiron thn peri ton alhqinon ekeinon ponton.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 10:26:48 am by Horus » Report Spam   Logged

"For the greater individual is the one who is the servant of all. And to conquer self is greater than taking cities."

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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 01:11:02 pm »

Section 25A:

Bury 1929
Lee 1965
Jowett 1871
Kalkavage 2001
For all that we have here, lying within the mouth of which we speak,1 is evidently a haven having a narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent.For the sea within the strait we were talking about is like a lake with a narrow entrance; the outer ocean is the real ocean and the land which entirely surrounds it is properly termed continent.for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. For these parts around here, which lie within the mouth we're talking about, are clearly a harbor that has a narrow entrance for sailing into, while that other is genuinely an ocean, and the land surrounding it would in perfect truth be most correctly called a continent.
Zeyl 2000
Taylor 1793
Wells 2005
Greek
Everything here inside the strait we're talking about seems nothing but a harbor with a narrow entrance, whereas that is really an ocean out there and the land that embraces it all the way around truly deserves to be called a continent.For the waters which are beheld within the mouth which we just now mentioned, have the form of a bay with a narrow entrance; but the mouth itself is a true sea. And lastly, the earth which surrounds it is in every respect truly denominated the continent. But this which is entirely within the straits of which we are speaking seems a narrow harbor, something having a narrow harbor entrance. Yet that outside is truly an ocean and the land surrounding it is altogether [[in reality]] most correctly called a continent.tade men gar osa entos tou stomatos ou legomen, fainetai limhn stenon tina exwn eisploun. ekeino de pelagos ontws h te periexousa auto gh pantelws [alhqws] orqotata an legoito hpeiros.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 10:27:41 am by Horus » Report Spam   Logged

"For the greater individual is the one who is the servant of all. And to conquer self is greater than taking cities."

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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 01:17:48 pm »

Section 25B:

Bury 1929
Lee 1965
Jowett 1871
Kalkavage 2001
Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and marvelous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent; and, moreover, of the lands here within the Straits they ruled over Libya as far as Egypt, and over Europe as far as Tuscany. So this host, being all gathered together, made an attempt one time to enslave by one single onslaught both your country and ours and the whole of the territory within the Straits.On this island of Atlantis had arisen a powerful and remarkable dynasty of kings, who ruled the whole island, and many other islands as well and parts of the continent; in addition it controlled, within the strait, Libya up to the borders of Egypt and Europe as far as Tyrrhenia (Italy). This dynasty, gathering its whole power together, attempted to enslave, at a single stroke, your country and ours and all the territory within the strait.Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits;And on this very island of Atlantis there was gathered a great and wondrous power of kings, which mastered the entire island, many other islands, and even parts of the continent; and in addition to these, they further ruled over the lands here within Libya as far as Egypt, and over Europe as far as Tuscany. Now once this power had been gathered into one, it undertook in a single onslaught to enslave the region around you and the one around us, and the entire region within the mouth.
Zeyl 2000
Taylor 1793
Wells 2005
Greek
Now on this Isle of Atlantis a great and marvelous royal power established itself and ruled not only the whole island, but many of the other islands and parts of the continent as well. What's more, its rule extended even inside strait, over Libya as far as Egypt and over Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. Now one day this power gathered all of itself together and set out to enslave all the territory inside the strait, including your region and ours, in one fell swoop.In this Atlantic island a combination of kings was formed, who with mighty and wonderful power subdued the whole island, together with many other islands and parts of the continent; and besides this, subjugated to their dominion all Libya, as far as to Egypt; and Europe, as far as to the Tyrrhene sea. And when they were collected in a powerful league, they endeavoured to enslave all out region and yours, and besides this all those places situated within the mouth of the Atlantic sea. Now then, on this island of Atlantis was a confederation of great and wondrous kings with power, ruling all those islands entirely and many other islands, and portions of the continent. But also ruling over lands here within [the straits]; Libya as far as Egypt, and Europe as far a Tyrrhenia. Indeed, these very kings, being assembled as one, made a single assault upon [lands] near to you and upon [lands] near to us, and upon others within the straits, all the places at that time to conquer all and enslave them. en de dh th atlantidi nhsh tauth megalh sunesth kai qaumasth dunamis basilewn, kratousa men apashs ths nhsou, pollwn de allwn nhswn kai merwn ths hpeirou pros de toutois eti twn entos thde libuhs men hrcon mecri pros aigupton, ths de eurwphs mecri turrhnias. auth dh pasa xunaqroisqeis eis en h dunamis ton te para umin kai ton para hmin kai ton entos tou stomatos panta topon mia pote epeceirsen ormh doulousqai,
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 10:29:07 am by Horus » Report Spam   Logged

"For the greater individual is the one who is the servant of all. And to conquer self is greater than taking cities."

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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2007, 01:22:27 pm »

Section 25C:

Bury 1929
Lee 1965
Jowett 1871
Kalkavage 2001
And then it was, Solon, that the manhood of your State showed itself conspicuous for valor and might in the sight of all the world. For it stood pre-eminent above all in gallantry and all warlike arts, and acting partly as leader of the Greeks, and partly standing alone by itself when deserted by all others, after encountering the deadliest perils, it defeated the invaders and reared a trophy; whereby it saved from slavery such as were not as yet enslaved, and all the rest of us who dwell within the bounds of Heracles it ungrudgingly set free. It was then, Solon, that the power and courage and strength of your city became clear for all men to see. Her bravery and military skill were outstanding; she led an alliance of the Greeks, and then when they deserted her and she was forced to fight alone, after running into direst peril, she overcame the invaders and celebrated a victory; she rescued those not yet enslaved from the slavery threatening them, and she generously freed all others living within the Pillars of Hercules. and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. It was then, Solon, that the power of your city became illustrious to all mankind for her virtue and might, for she stood before all other in bravery and in all the arts relating to war, at times leading the Greeks, at times standing alone, of necessity, when the others defected; having taken the most extreme risks and having mastered the invaders, she set up trophies; and she prevented from being enslaved those who were not yet enslaved, while for the rest of us dwelling within the boundaries of Hercules, she liberated us all ungrudgingly.
Zeyl 2000
Taylor 1793
Wells 2005
Greek
Then it was, Solon, that your city's might shone bright with excellence and strength for all humankind to see. Preeminent among all others in the nobility of her spirit and in her use of all the arts of war, she first rose to the leadership of the Greek cause. Later, forced to stand alone, deserted by her allies, she reached a point of extreme peril. Nevertheless she overcame the invaders and erected her monument of victory. She prevented the enslavement of those not yet enslaved and generously freed all the rest of us who lived within the boundaries of Heracles. Then it was, O Solon, that the power of your city was conspicuous to all men for its virtue and strength. For, as its armies surpassed all others both in magnanimity and military skill, so with respect to its contests, whether it was assisted by the rest of the Greeks, over whom it presided in warlike affairs, or whether it was deserted by them through the incursions of the enemy, and became situated in extreme danger, yet it still remained triumphant. In the mean time, those who were not yet enslaved it liberated from danger; and procured the most ample liberty for all those of us who dwell within the Pillars of Hercules. At that time, therefore O Solon, your city's power, before all men, became manifestly valorous and strong. For among all you were foremost in courage and great cunning in the midst of battle, so of all the Greeks you took the lead; yet at the same time you came to stand alone out of necessity, for the others deserted. Yet upon finally encountering the danger you conquered; the invaders stood in defeat. So those not yet enslaved, you spared from being enslaved, but all the others, everyone dwelling within the boundary of Heracles, all these together you ungrudgingly set free. tote oun umwn, w solon, ths polews h gunamis eis apantas anqrwpous diafanhs areth te kai rwmh egeneto pantwn gar prostasa euyucia kai tecnais osai kata polemon, ta men twn ellhnwn hgoumenh, ta de auth monwqeisa ex anagkhs twn allwn apostantwn, epi tous escatous afikomenh kindunous, krathsasa men twn epiontwn tropaia esthse, tous de mhpw dedoulwmenous diekwluse doulwqhnai, tous de allous, osoi katoikoumen entos orwn hrakleiwn, afqonws apantas hleuqerwsen.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 10:28:54 am by Horus » Report Spam   Logged

"For the greater individual is the one who is the servant of all. And to conquer self is greater than taking cities."

Reading 3253-2
Mark of Australia
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2007, 01:28:46 pm »

 Smiley
Ahhh  ,no longer will I have to type out so many quotes of Plato , I can just point them toward Horus' soon to be famous 'Eight Editions' posts.  Grin
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2007, 01:31:38 pm »

Section 25D:

Bury 1929
Lee 1965
Jowett 1871
Kalkavage 2001
But at a later time there occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and one grievous day and night befell them, when the whole body of your warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner was swallowed up by the sea and vanished; wherefore also the ocean at that spot has now become impassable and unsearchable, being blocked up by the shoal mud which the island created as it settled down.At a later time there were earthquakes and floods of extraordinary violence, and in a single dreadful day and night all your fighting men were swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis was similarly swallowed up by the sea and vanished; this is why the sea in that area is to this day impassable to navigation, which is hindered by mud just below the surface, the remains of the sunken island.But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.But at a later time, when monstrous earthquakes and floods came about, and one grievous day and night assaulted them, the entire assembly of warriors among you sank beneath the earth, and the island of Atlantis likewise sank beneath the sea and disappeared; which is why, even now, the ocean in that spot has become impassible and unexplorable, since it is blocked by the shoal mud the island produced upon settling.
Zeyl 2000
Taylor 1793
Wells 2005
Greek
Sometime later, excessively violent earthquakes and floods occurred, and after the onset of n unbearable day and night, your entire warrior force sank below the earth all at once, and the Isle of Atlantis likewise sank below the sea and disappeared. That is how the ocean in that region has come to be even now unnavigable and unexplorable, obstructed as it is by a layer of mud at a shallow depth, the residue of the island as it settled.But in succeeding time prodigious earthquakes and deluges taking place, and bringing with them desolation in the space of one day and night, all that warlike race of Athenians was once merged under the earth; and the Atlantic island itself, being absorbed in the sea, entirely disappeared. And hence that sea is at present innavigable, arising from the gradually impeding mud which the subsiding island produced.But at a later time, violent earthquakes and floods came. In a single grievous day and night they came, and the ones with you, fighting men, were all together swallowed by the earth, and the island of Atlantis in a similar way plunged into the sea, vanishing; and because of this it is now impassible and unfathomable, that part of the sea became thick mire, a heavily laden hindrance, for this is what the settling down of the island has caused. usterw de cronw seismwn exaisiwn kai kataklusmwn genomenwn, mias hmeras kai nuktos calephs elqoushs, to te para umwn macimon pan aqroon edu kata ghs, h te atlantidi nhsos wsautws kata ths qalatths dusa hfainisqh dio kai nun aporon kai adiereunhton gegone to ekei pelagos, phlou [karta baqeos] empodwn ontos on h nhsos izomenh paresceto.

End of Timaeus 25D

Compiled by J. Warren Wells
Adapted for this MB system by Horus
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 10:30:15 am by Horus » Report Spam   Logged

"For the greater individual is the one who is the servant of all. And to conquer self is greater than taking cities."

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Horus
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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2007, 11:46:23 pm »

Quote
Ahhh  ,no longer will I have to type out so many quotes of Plato , I can just point them toward Horus' soon to be famous 'Eight Editions' posts. 


Hi Mark,

Most of the credit goes to Joseph Wells.  His translation is not as eloquent as Jowett's or a couple of the others because he was trying to get as close as possible to the original Greek words and this approach gave him no room to rephrase with any flair. 

While these excerpts from the Timaeus are important, I think that the Critias dialogue is still the definitive document on Atlantis and I don't have that in eight editions... yet.  For the most part, Jowett's and Bury's translations suffice for doing any research or debating people about their theories, and I noticed that someone has already posted both of these versions in this section. 

Horus

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"For the greater individual is the one who is the servant of all. And to conquer self is greater than taking cities."

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« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2007, 12:25:54 am »

Hi Horus ,

That your posts have short excerpts is convenient for reference . I feel like this forum just went up a notch thanks to your posts ,not to mention Gwen's original posting of Timaeus and Critias.

Yes , it would be great to have something similar for Critias.
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2007, 01:02:02 pm »

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the kind compliment and appreciation!  Again, Joseph Wells really did all the hard work and deserves the credit.   

I don't know how interested in Classical Greek knowledge you are, but there is a great group based in Melbourne, Australia called "The Society of Ancient Hellenic Studies":

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~hwaa/pageone.html

I mine their website for information every once in while when I need some serious information like this excellent article on Poseidon:

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~hwaa/Poseidon.html

Horus
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"For the greater individual is the one who is the servant of all. And to conquer self is greater than taking cities."

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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2007, 06:06:07 pm »

Hm, what I really miss is the correct numbering of the paragraphs,
so that you can cite it scientifically.
I suggest to add this numbering.

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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2007, 06:53:42 am »

Cicero,

Stephanus pagination for Timaeus 24d to 25d is as follows (quoting the Greek text from the Perseus-Tufts website):



[24d] te kai philosophos hÍ theos ousa ton prospherestatous autÍi mellonta oisein topon andras, touton eklexamenÍ prŰton katŰikisen. Űikeite dÍ oun nomois te toioutois chrŰmenoi kai eti mallon eunomoumenoi pasÍi te para pantas anthrŰpous huperbeblÍkotes aretÍi, kathaper eikos gennÍmata kai paideumata theŰn ontas.

polla men oun humŰn kai megala erga tÍs poleŰs tÍide gegrammena thaumazetai, pantŰn mÍn




[24e] hen huperechei megethei kai aretÍi: legei gar ta gegrammena hosÍn hÍ polis humŰn epausen pote dunamin hubrei poreuomenÍn hama epi pasan EurŰpÍn kai Asian, exŰthen hormÍtheisan ek tou Atlantikou pelagous.

tote gar poreusimon Ín to ekei pelagos: nÍson gar pro tou stomatos eichen ho kaleite, hŰs phate, humeis HÍrakleous stÍlas, hÍ de nÍsos hama LibuÍs Ín kai Asias meizŰn, ex hÍs epibaton epi tas allas nÍsous tois tote egigneto poreuomenois, ek de tŰn nÍsŰn





[25a] epi tÍn katantikru pasan Ípeiron tÍn peri ton alÍthinon ekeinon ponton.

tade men gar, hosa entos tou stomatos hou legomen, phainetai limÍn stenon tina echŰn eisploun: ekeino de pelagos ontŰs hÍ te periechousa auto gÍ pantelŰs alÍthŰs orthotat' an legoito Ípeiros.

en de dÍ tÍi Atlantidi nÍsŰi tautÍi megalÍ sunestÍ kai thaumastÍ dunamis basileŰn, kratousa men hapasÍs tÍs nÍsou, pollŰn de allŰn nÍsŰn kai merŰn tÍs Ípeirou: pros de toutois eti tŰn entos tÍide



[25b] LibuÍs men Írchon mechri pros Aigupton, tÍs de EurŰpÍs mechri TurrÍnias. hautÍ dÍ pasa sunathroistheisa eis hen hÍ dunamis ton te par' humin kai ton par' hÍmin kai ton entos tou stomatos panta topon miai pote epecheirÍsen hormÍi doulousthai.

tote oun humŰn, Ű SolŰn, tÍs poleŰs hÍ dunamis eis hapantas anthrŰpous diaphanÍs aretÍi te kai rhŰmÍi egeneto: pantŰn gar prostasa eupsuchiai kai technais hosai kata polemon,



[25c] ta men tŰn HellÍnŰn hÍgoumenÍ, ta d' autÍ monŰtheisa ex anankÍs tŰn allŰn apostantŰn, epi tous eschatous aphikomenÍ kindunous, kratÍsasa men tŰn epiontŰn tropaion estÍsen, tous de mÍpŰ dedoulŰmenous diekŰlusen doulŰthÍnai, tous d' allous, hosoi katoikoumen entos horŰn HÍrakleiŰn, aphthonŰs hapantas ÍleutherŰsen.

husterŰi de chronŰi seismŰn exaisiŰn kai kataklusmŰn genomenŰn, mias



[25d] hÍmeras kai nuktos chalepÍs epelthousÍs, to te par' humin machimon pan hathroon edu kata gÍs, hÍ te Atlantis nÍsos hŰsautŰs kata tÍs thalattÍs dusa ÍphanisthÍ: dio kai nun aporon kai adiereunÍton gegonen toukei pelagos, pÍlou karta bracheos empodŰn ontos, hon hÍ nÍsos hizomenÍ parescheto.Ē

ta men dÍ rhÍthenta, Ű SŰkrates, hupo tou palaiou
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« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2007, 09:43:25 am »

Cicero,

Stephanus pagination for Timaeus 24d to 25d is as follows
Thank you,
but I thought of the pagination
inserted into the synopsis
of the English translations above ... :-)
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2007, 10:35:19 am »

I did identify the range of sections at the beginning of this thread, and I put each section of Timaeus into its own post. Since there are only six sections presented here, I thought that this was enough to easily ascertain which one a person is reading, but apparently this was not sufficient.  So just for you Cicero, each section has now been identified!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 10:37:46 am by Horus » Report Spam   Logged

"For the greater individual is the one who is the servant of all. And to conquer self is greater than taking cities."

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