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Narrowing-down where Atlantis is/not

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senator Bam
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« on: February 07, 2015, 10:01:44 am »

I am sorry if I perhaps should not have started another new thread/topic instead of just posting this in the other 'Atlantis Tiahuanaco' one, but we need to start again from a "blank page" since the other topic is already a couple of pages replies in (and not much views), and since it seems that people i have disputed with here and eslewhere seem to not see how we narrowed-down where Atlantis can/can't be (and how/why we are sure that Atlantis capital city is Tiahuanaco). (Maybe they didn't even read my blog paper? It is annoying to have to yet again rewrite our Atlantis paper. Though maybe it is that they do not agree rather than not seen or read.) We need to show people through the narrowing-down we went through, because it seems like we are always having to try to explain or repeat. Maybe we can at least agree on the continent/ocean if not the city possibly?

The most major point of our thesis notes below is probably the large island size.
Note i not yet done/finished/included alot of other sections (eg 10 kings, blue robes, etc).
Also sorry for alot of repetition throughout, it can't be helped because we have to fully detail/explain each Atlantis-detail section.
I spent the last 1-2 full day/s/night/s doing this.
Pictures are in the other 'Atlantis Tiahuanaco' topic/thread, and at http://picasaweb.google.com/seanbam2/Antipodean .

 ------

Narrowing down where Atlantis island and city can/can't be.
(last updated Tue 10th feb 5 pm.)

(Note the numbers which we have added to each detail section header are from the 2005 Milos convention list of 24 points plus Jim Allen's added 10 points (making 34 points).)




* real, or fiction?
No one should have the right to just assume/assert that the Account is just a Platonic philosophical fiction. People have to dis/prove whether it is fiction/true not just assert it. Only by open objective equal-effort testing to see if it is true or not can it be proven. Each detail must be dis/proven by themselves (and in general interconnections).
The Atlantis account says it is true history not just a philosophical tale.
The spring at Athens was found just like the Account says.
The Atlantis account comes from Solon not Plato.
We have now found the capital city of Atlantis (and the Plain and Mountains etc).
Was Troy just Homeric fiction?
The concentric circles, etc in various places around world confirm Atlantis existence.

* west, or east?
The Atlantis Account and other accounts make it clear that Atlantis was west not east.
Atlantis was "western", in Atlantic, conquered upto Italy and Libya/Egypt, outside/opposite pillars of Hercules. The Atlas mountains are in far west of Africa/Mediterranean.
Some sources point out that Egyptians/Arabs had south as "up/top", but from all the Atlantis Account/s and world history it is clear Atlantis was west not east.
Atlantis also seems to connect with Tuat/Urani "land of sunset"/Amenti/Pet/Aaru which was in western hemisphere.
Western hemisphere has more water than eastern (for Poseidon/Atlantic/'real ocean').

* (10.) south, or north?
The Atlantis account doesn't seem to clearly say/imply whether Atlantis was north or south (or middle/centre), but from the evidences it appears that Atlantis is south not north. (Homer's Scheria/Phaeacia is also disputed whether northern or southern.)
Possible evidences for south vs north:
Atlas/Africa and Gades/Spain/Europe may parallel South and North Atlantic/America. (Atlas mountains are in Africa not inSpain/Europe.)
The Ethopian/Erythrean/Atlantic sea/ocean seems to be the South Atlantic (ref Herodotus?).
Botlon's dowsing result for Atlantis was South Atlantic.
The Account says Atlantis was "then under the sun" which could link with south/equator/tropics?
Atlanteans were most distant which fits with western and southern/capricorn (as Peruvian is).
Herodotus did speculate Hypernotians.
The north pole was at one time then in North America, and/or North America  was half covered by ice at the time.
Kirhcir's Atlantis fits South America better than North America?
The Piri Reis map shows South and part of Central America not North America (except Florida)? (Though i can't remember if sources say it showed Greenland ice free?)
Atlantis plain faced south, sheltered from north (wind).
Necho's fleet went/"searched" south not north?
Assyrian depictions of the Toakkari sea people(s) bearing South American fan-palm.
Recent years findings suggest that in the Americas south & east is older than north & west (ref SC Compton 'Exodus Lost').
Dio Sic &/or others say Atlantis was reached from Africa ("off Libya") [not from/off Spain/Europe]?
South America is centered further east than North America. Africa sticks out further than Spain/Europe.
Stonehenge damaged on south-west side.
The 'cati'/"this way" statue in Azores pointed (?south-)west?
For people's full information, possible evidence for north vs south (Atlantic/America) includes:
The "north Sea Peoples" of Egyptian (ref Spanuth).
Hyperborea.
Strabo called Spain "sacred promontory".
North/Central America is more directly opposite the Pillars on our modern maps.
Maps & world-views with north pole as centre (UN(O), Father Xmas, Superman, Hollow Earth theory, Great Pyramid geodesy).
The ha-Saponi (northerners) of Biblical.
Kaptara of Assyrian?


* (1. 4. 24. (25?)) continent, or island?
* larger than, or between?
Although the Account called Atlantis an island [not a continent] it is clear from the Account that Atlantis was a large island/landmass/continent not just a small royal island.
Was "larger than Libya [Africa] and Asia combined/together". (A few people claim it is "between" not "larger than", but the vast majority of the last 2500 years say larger not between, and all the details of the account agree with us. [Americas may also qualify as "between" Asia in (north)west and Libya/Africa in (south)east?]) Compare that Herodotus said Europe was larger than Asia & Libya.
Was a "large/r island"  that ruled over the other small/er islands of Atlantic.
Had a large/great plain. (High) mountains. [(Great) river(s).] Many species of animals including elephants. Was self-sufficient (ref Plato).
Large population/army.
10 kings regions.
The Account saying "the whole island".
The "3 large islands of Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon, Poseidon/Neptune/Atlantis and Hades/Pluto (and 7 smaller islands of Persephone/Proserpina) in the Western sea [or that the world was divided up between?]"
We are "not looking for a needle in a haystack" as Hanc0ck('s research assistant) put it.
"Island(s)/isle(s)" in ancient Egyptian/Biblical/Greek can mean either small/large island, peninsula, coastlands/sealands, continent, the 'world-island' (the Old World), planet.
In modern times people call Australia either an island or a continent.
Kirchir's map if not just spurious shows Atlantis as a large island-continent and seemingly very similar to South America in details.
If there was a continental shift, then South America may have been more of an "island" before shift?
The continent Maurigosima (& king Peiru-un) of Chinese?
The 2 continents/landmasses/islands Kusa & Pushkara or Vishnukranta of Indian?



* (3.) Atlantic, or Indian/Pacific?
Of the 5 oceans (or 7 seas) it is clear from the Account that Atlantis can only be in the (North/South) Atlantic not in the Indian, (North/South) Pacific, Antarctic, Arctic.
Atlantis was "western", opposite the Pillars, conquered upto Italy and Libya/Egypt, was in the "real/true ocean", in the Atlantic.
Kirchir's map if not just spurious shows Atlantis in the Atlantic.
We can further narrow-down to the South Atlantic (versus north Atlantic) as already shown (Atlas mountians is in Africa not Europe, "Ethiopian/Erythrean/Atlantic sea/ocean", etc).
The real ocean &/or Atlantic can be either/both sides of Atlantis/America, and fits the (South) Atlantic/Antarctic/Pacific. (The southern hemisphere has majority/unity of oceans. Western hemisphere has more water than eastern. The water hempsphere is centred on Pacific/Antarctic. The oceans in descending order of size go Pacific, Atlantic, Indian.)

* America, or Europe/Asia/Africa/Antartica?
There are "7 continents". From the Atlantis Account (and from world geography/history) we can rule-out Pacific, Australia, 8th continent/"Atlantis", Antartica, Asia, Africa, Europe, Pangaea. (The closest would be north-west Atlantic-coast Africa and/or south-west Atlantic-coast Spain, but they can't/don't match Atlantis.) Atlantis can only be North and/or South America/s (excl/incl Lesser Antarctica), or the 'Armorica plate'/Avallonia/Apallachia/Euramerica.
Atlantis was a large island (larger than Asia & Libya/Africa), was "western", in the Atlantic, conquered upto Italy & Libya/Egypt, opposite the Pillars, in the real ocean (and not in Mediterranean), had a Plain and high mountains, "sank".
The Account seems to imply that Atlantis was a separate landmass to "Asia & Libya/Africa", "Europe & Libya/Africa", "Asia & Europe".
The Atlas mountains in far n.w. Africa (not in Europe), and parallel Andes in South America.
There are no sunken/submerged large landmasses in the Atlantic or Indian (or Pacific). The mid-Atlantic (Azores) is moving up/out not down/in.
There is only one place in North & South Americas that fits/matches the plain and mountains and sea and city and civilisation/culture etc, and that is the Andes/Peru/Altiplano/Titicaca/Tiahuanaco.

* ((1.) 17-19. 22. 24.) "sank"/swallowed, or sank?
Some sources do/not know/say that there is not just one but a number of possibilities for the "sinking" catastrophe/calamity of the Atlantis Account including:
literally sank/sunk/subsided/earthquake, submerged/rising sealevels/tidal bulge, tidal wave/"tsunami", the/a flood, continental shift, pole shift/crust displacement, volcanic eruption/explosion, near pass-by of a celestial body. (Compare Joshua didn't quite/totally "literally" make sun stand still did he?)
In short, the land &/or water moved either down/up *or sideways*.
From the Account (and from world history/geography) we can rule-out some of the possibilities.
The Account doesn't actually say "sank/sunk" (in many/some translations, though one translation does), it says "swallowed up" / "disappered into the depths of the sea" (some sources say "overwhelmed").
Atlantis was a large island (larger than Asia & Libya/Africa). There are no sunken/submerged large landmasses in Atlantic or Indian (or Pacific excepting 'Zealandia').
It "sank" in "terrible quake(s) & flood(s)".
No ice is mentioned. No volcanic explosion is mentioned. No rain like in Genesis is mentioned (though some translations mention day of rain).
"Atlantis must be on same fault line" *or touching tectonic regions/Plates* as Athens. (The 2 armies may or may not have been destroyed in same or not in same catastrophe/time, but fits either way.)
Only Atlantis "sank"/"vanished" not rest of world.
(The whole island of) Atlantis "vanished/disappeared" without trace except for "mud".
Any theory must also consider that certain sources give evidence that the Andes must have been pushed-up (higher) suddenly/violently within the lifetime of ancient humans & civilisation ("sea ports in the Andes", etc. Refs include C Berlitz, C Darwin, I Lissner, I Velikovsky.)
- Tiahuanaco had flood in archaeology and in tradition/myth.
- long night catasrophe ca 1400 bc (Inca kinglists).
- unu Pachacuti "water overturns land"?
[- "mega disaters Pumapunku"?]
- lake Titicaca's "old water lines are slanted".
- Stonehenge (contemporary with Mycenanean) damaged on southwest side.
Some have said/implied that continental shift is "geologically impossible", but we gave evidences in our previous paper that it it not necessarily impossible, and/or historical/geological evidences that there seemingly may have been a shift.

* ((1.) 22.) muddy sea?
Ptolemy's map possibly shows muddy sea in a few places around the Old World coasts/seas, but none of those areas match the major details of the Account (large island, plain, direction, etc).
The "muddy sea" surely must have been in the Atlantic, not in the Mediterranean.
Some of the possibilities for the "sinking" that we gave above such as Continental Shift would/could have caused "muddy sea" in the Atlantic.
There are also possible evidences/matches for the "muddy sea" in the Atlantic (then) including:
- sea floor sediments in the Atlantic.
- banks/bars or rise (or Brendan's island/whale).
- Sargasso sea?
-  "mucky water Bermuda"?
- Bermuda triangle?
[Peruvian also mentions   llullaillaco "llulla/dirty yacu/water"? And "mud that floats" (Uros)?]


* (12.) elephants: America, or Asia/Africa?
Atlantis had elephants. (Keftiou had ivory/tusks.)
"Elephant" can mean either: (African/Indian/American) elephant, mammoth, toxodon, mastodon, or aleph/alpha "ox/bull".
"Prehistoric" &/or ancient Americas had ("Indian") elephants (eg 'Elephant Mound', etc. References C Berlitz, D MacKenzie.) [Note that the evolutionary dating is wrong, not right. Though it could also/alterantively fit with "9000" years anyway.]
Peru/Bolivia had toxodon &/or mastodon (eg mastodon at Tarija. Sea salt petrified mastodon near Bogota. Refs: G Hanc0ck, J Allen.)
Elephants seen in the Crespi collection.
"age of giant tapirs" (Tiahuanaco)?


* (23.) 900 years [ca 1400s bc], or 9000 yrs/9600 bc?
Certain sources say/show that Atlantis can not have been 9000 years/bc because Athens/Greece / Neith/Sais/Egypt was not around at that date.
Sources also say/show that Atlantis account is roughly the ("Minoan/Mycenaean") Bronze/Brass/Brazen Age.
Atlantis Account mentions the "3rd deluge".
Atlantis was  "between Cecrops (1556-1506) - Erechtheus (1397-1347)".
A number of Classical sources clearly state that Egyptians called months "years".
Spanuth's "9000 years = 9000 months" and Mavor's "9000 years = 900 years" both reconcile with a 10 month calendar year (compare "10 kings").
Plato's 900(0) years Atlantis matches Herodotus' 900 years Moeris (12th dynasty) and Herodotus' 900 years for Hercules [12th dynasty].
Compare "Hyperboreans lived a 1000 years" = 100/110/120 years (Egyptian/Biblical/history).
Although slightly different, we can also compare Herodotus' (1)1340 years Menes to Seti matching Josephus's 1300 years Menes to Shishak.
Atlantis 900 yrs / ca 1400s bc = Moeris 900 yrs / ca 1400s bc = Exodus/Joshua 480+<490 yrs / ca 1400s bc = Peruvian king-list long night ca 1400/1394 bc (Sitchin/Alford, & cp Hoeh).
(Exodus mentions enemies of Egypt?)
Orthodox archaeologists supposed dates for Tiahuanaco include 1580 bc, &/or 1200 bc.
Atlas = Shu = air = Amon = Jupiter/Zeus.
Amon is 12th dynasty. Shu is Middle Kingdom (Moeris).
3 Hermes Set, Shu/Num, Thoth, matches 3 reincarnations Seth, Moses, Samuel, roughly matches 3 kingdoms Old, Middle, New.
Shu is in El-Arish inscription which is seemingly connected with Exodus.
Herodotus' shoal of Sesostris (12th or 19th dyn) may possibly connect with Atlantis muddy sea?
 "Bronze Age America" (Barry Fell, J Jewell)?
Even if one prefers 9000 yrs/bc it still/also fits our discovery. Posnansky's dates range for Tiahuanaco is 4500 bc / 10500 bc / 15000/15,538 bc.
"12,000th yr" Tiahuanaco.
Akakor 10,481 bc (though supposed to be a fake)?
[Although from North/Central not South America also compare: Mayan 8498 yrs/bc date; rising sealevels at end of Ice Age submerged Caribbean in 10000s bc.]
Peruvian is the oldest civilisation/agriculture in Americas (and one of the few oldest of world).


* (3.) Pillars at Gibraltar, or Messena/Dardanelles/etc?
The Atlantis Account says Atlantis was beyond/opposite/facing the pillars of Hercules.
It is true that there were 12 pillars of Hercules, and that there were ones at Dardanelles. [Ogygia/Calypso "kept the tall pillars..."?]
 However the Account makes it clear that the Pillars meant are the ones at Gibraltar:
Atlantis was in the Atlantic, in the real ocean not in Mediterranean, was "western", beyond the Pillars, larger than Asia & Libya, invaded inside the pillars upto Italy and Libya/Egypt, etc.
There were pillars of Hercules/Melkarth at (either) Gibraltar/Gades/Tartessos/Huelva. [Herodotus said Tartessos was outside the Pillars?]
For the outside/beyond/"opposite/facing/in front of" the Pillars dispute:
- (only) North and South Americas both qualify as (large enough and) opposite Pillars (now/then, on various maps projections).
- South America is opposite in map projection with Giza/Cairo as/at centre/center (which Piri Reis map is supposed to match).
- South America is/was opposite in projection centred on north pole (esp if there was a continental shift) (community.adlandpro.com/forums/post/2393680/all-about-cosmic-cycles-and-ages/4.aspx).
- If there was a pole shift, then Atlantis/South America may have been even more directly opposite the pillars. Compare Zanne's map.  Compare "45 degree tilt" (Schulten/Sitchin)?
- It is also possibly disputible exactly where the Gibraltar/Tartessos/Gades/Huelva Pillars of Hercules were (i mean that the pillars might not have been exactly at Gilbraltar/Tartessos/Gades/Huelva but abit further out/down/up)? If the pillars were at Huelva then South America is opposite. Donnelly's map has Europe/Spain extending out to Madeira. Kampanakis's map has pillars/strait at an opening to a Sahara sea.
- In J Kirchir's map Atlantis (opposite the pillars) fits/matches South America (better than North America).



* (3.) Atlantic/Ocean, or Mediterranean/Sea?
The Atlantis Account says Atlantis was in the outer "real ocean" and not in the inner Mediterranean Sea. "(At a distant point) in the Atlantic". Opposite the Pillars of Hercules. Some sources say the Mediterranean had a number of pelagoses, and that the one outer pelagos was Atlantic pelagos. Atlantis was larger than Asia and Libya/Africa together/combined.

* ((3. 14. 20-)21.) distance/reachible: far/not-near, or near/not-far?
The distance is not specifically stated in Plato's Atlantis Account.
It is true that Atlantis can not be way to far distance from Mediterranean. This (&/or other details like direction) rules-out some sites like Antarctica. However, Atlantis also can not be too close, because according to some sources Atlantis (like Scheria/Phaeacia) is said to be "remotest", "at ends of world", "at distant point in the Atlantic Ocean", "unmixed with other mortals"? (as well as "outside/beyond/opposite the Pillars of Hercules" [the boundaries of Greek world], "in the outer real ocean not in inner Mediterranean sea"). Diodorus Siculus says "a number of days sail to west / many days sailing across the Atlantic". 5 days (+ 50 stades/500 miles)?
[The Azores statue pointed/said "this way". Azores may be Ogygia (ie middle/half-way)?]
The remote/distant/ends well fits Peruvian civilisation being in the west coast of America (western hemisphere) and/or being in South America (tropic of Capricorn) [as compared to other major world civilisations].
South America is centered further east than North America (and Africa sticks out further than Spain/Europe).
If there was a continental shift, then Atlantis/America was once closer to Old World (upto half the current distance).
"The oceans/seas/water-ways were highways not barriers".
Also perhaps compare modern Atlantic crossing records [with some Atlantis accounts saying a few days sail]?
There are no other (matching) sunken/submerged (large) landmasses opposite Africa/Spain other than Americas.
Some say Atlantis must be on same faultline as Athens, but we say it could rather be touching tectonic plates (or global/regional scale event).


* King one of the oldest Atlanteans?
According to one source the king was one of the oldest of the Atlanteans? (I haven't yet found this verified in the Account?)
(Compare king Arganthonius of Tartessos. Hyperboreans lived a 100(0) years.)
The 3 modern places known for longevity are Andes, Caucasus and Pamir/Himalaya area.
(One list for longevity includes high altitude. Wetas up high live longer then wetas down low.)
The Peruvian king-list has centenarians. "1 objection often presented to such an extensive Inca period is the unusually long length of life necessitated for the rulers. Several are over 100 yrs old." (Ref H Hoeh).

* (9.) (near) the sea?
Atlantis capital city island was near (9.2 km from) the sea. This has been thought to be either an inland sea/lake or the ocean/sea.
The only/one significant inland sea now/then in all the Americas (&/or World) is Titicaca which was a "vast inland sea". (The North American great lakes were under ice then?)
Sources give evidence that the Akapana/Tiahuanaco was once connected with the water of Titicaca lake/sea (eg Daniken, etc).
"Titicaca contains known sea life".
"Sea ports in the Andes" (refs E Sykes, I Velikovsky).
The sea / lake Titicaca is also shown in the Coricancha picture along with half/a dozen other details matching the Atlantis Account.
Sources give evidences that the Andes then had a "Pacific (ocean)" geo-climate (I Lissner, Darwin, etc).
There maybe also/alternatively evidences for sea south of Tiahuanaco too (like the Salinas)?

* (9. 11. 26-28/29.) great/large Plain (& surrounding ditch & criss-crossing canals/channels)?
(Atlantis can only be in Americas.) The only place in all Americas (&/or World) that fits the large Plain and the other details of the Account (mountains, sea, city, etc) is Peru/Bolivia.
Atlantis had a "network of canals not seen in Europe" (though Strabo/satellite has canals in Guadalvir(-Tinto) area in Spain).
The plain can't be the Great plains of North America because does not match all the Account. Nor can it be the Llanos of northwest South America. Can't be Raliegh's Parima area. Can't be the continental shelf off Florida/Bahamas. (Etc.)
Moreover there is clear/stark evidence that the large rectangular plain of the Account is same as the plain of Andes/Peru.
- the Altiplano is the right size and shape and position (mid point of the island), surrounded by mountains, and it has geoglyphs which fit the channels and population, all as the Account states.
 The ditch around the great plain may partly match with the Desaguadero which means "..."?
- Peru/Bolivia had and still has the sukukolos "raised fields" agriculture system.
- all 3 (rectangular plain, ditch, channels) shown in Coricancha picture (along with half/a dozen other details matching details of the Account). (The detail matching the plain is called in one source "long criss-crossed object".)
- plain & channels seen/shown in Crespi collection.

* ((6.) 8. (31.) 32.) Oreichalc: New World, or Old World?
Orei-chalc can mean either "gold or mountain, + copper/bronze or belonging to heaven or gold". Some sources say oreichalc is maybe/not (like) bronze/brass. [Jesus feet were oreichalc in Revelation/Apocalypse, and some temple artefacts were oreichalc in Josephus. Gold is "pure", brass is "judgment" in biblical.] The Atlantis accounts say oreichalc was mined, and it was also smelted. Oreichalc is said to have been "reddish" or "gleaming/sparkled like fire". One source says was a white oreichalc. It is suggested that there was two kinds of [orichalc or brass]?
The recent Sicily find is not Atlantean oreichalc because too late date, etc, and maybe wrong metal/alloy?
(Atlantis can only be in Americas.)
Mountain/heaven:
- Andes are among World's major/highest mountains, and qualify as near heaven.
Copper/tin/zinc/brass/bronze:
- Andes/Peru is one of / the Americas &/or World's most major/richest deposits/source/s of copper/tin/zinc (refs include Collins Atlas).
- Tiwanaku ~ Anaku "tin" (Mesopotamian land)?
- Andes ~ antis "copper"?
- "metalic objects especially copper & bronze at Tiawanaku".
- titicaca may (be from titi(kala) "(stone/rock of) a metal -- either lead or tin", and) mean "tin/lead crag/rock"?
- evidences that Akapana/Tiahuanco/Titicaca/Andes/Peru was a copper/bronze/tin/zinc smelting/mining centre (small green pebbles, retaining boulders/walls turned green, meaning of name) (Sitchin  'Lost Realms').
- Crespi collection includes brass/tin/zinc?
- copper metallurgy Norte Chico.
[ - 2 types of [brass or oreichalc]? 2 types of [lead or tin] (ref Bailey)? ]
- "unusual alloys" in America [similar to "unusual alloys" in Africa] (Jantsang & lost source)?
-  "Bronze Age America" (Barry Fell)?
Gold:
- the gold of Eldorado/Conquistadores/Peru/Coricancha? (Cori-/guaracy = "gold/sun".) (There was also gold of Mexico but all details of the Account not match there.)
- uru names in Andes (Sitchin),
- "gold_edging" (website on Cuzco/Coricancha temple/s).
- Crespi collection includes some gold.
- "red gold fever", Chuquicamata, Peru/Bolivia/Chile (ref Jim Allen / wiki).
- "yellow star" (Tiahuanaco gateway, Bellamy)?
[- one source says there was/were 2 types of gold?]
Copper &/or gold:
- "gold is a by-product of copper/zinc production".
- tumbaga "gilded-copper/gold-copper" alloy of Peru/Bolivia, "very popular among many Andean cultures" (J Allen).
- gilded-copper of Sipan (Readers Digest).
- AuAgCu of Chavin (Mattievich).
- Peruvian "mythology" mentions 3 metals/castes of gold, silver and copper. (Compare "red, white, black", and/or "Gold, Silver, Oreichalc", and/or "brass, tin, oreichalc" of Atlantis Account.)
- stone blocks with grooves / [nail] holes [for metal sheets] at [Pumapunku/Tiahuanaco] (ref Alan Alford)?
/ golden panels niche Tiahuanaco?
- as the upwards spade symbol in Peruvian is Atlas motif, the other inverse/downwards spade symbol in Peruvian pictures might be for mining (&/or for Poseidon's carving of water rings of city)?

* (9. 27.) (high(est)) mountains / [Atlas mountains]?
The Atlantis account said mountains of Atlantis are among the highest of the world. There are not that many great mountain ranges of the world to narrow down from.
Can't be Himalayas because Atlantis not fit/match Asia.
Can not be the Atlas mountains in Africa.
Can not be the Azores because mid-Atlantic is moving up/out not down/in, and the site does not match other details of Account (plus the statue in Azores pointed/said "this way").
(Atlantis can only be in the Americas.) Can't be the Appallachians/Alleghenes (which were at one stage of the continental "drift"/shift "higher than Himalayas").
The Andes are among the world's highest mountain( range)s [and qualify for Atlas motif and as as near heaven]. (The Atlas world pillar motif is also found clearly demonstrated/shown in Peru myth/culture pictures.) "Andes/Titicaca/Altiplano highest except Tibet" (Jim Allen). "Illampu/Sorata is comparable to Himalayas". The Andes analogously parallel/mirror the Atlas mountains in Africa.
[?Chimborazo] is also the furtherest/highest point on Earth's crust from the core/centre of the earth.
Although there is evidence that the Andes have been pushed up suddenly in ancient times, the some of Andes must have still been high at the time.
The mountains are maybe also shown in the Coricancha picture?
(Piri Reis map is also said to show Andes?)

* (9. 27.) Atlas (world pillar/tree) motif/mountains?
The spade symbol above head in Peruvian masks/etc matches the Atlas motif (esp the Chimu/Mochica mask with it rising from the concentric circles [city]), and it signigicantly seems prominent in Peruvian culture (and not elsewhere in the world?). (Refs: Pears, Larouse mythology, etc.)
The Andes also qualify as Atlas and near heaven.
Rairu's father Karu "sky maker" (South American, ref Pears)?
[Alternatively: The world pillar/tree has been linked by some with the (date) palm, and it is said that there are Assyrian pictures of the Toakkari Sea Peoples bearing the "South American fan palm"?]
Perhaps also compare in neighbouring areas:
- the stone pumice hats of the Easter island Moai statues?
- Ru "Atlas" (Polynesian god)?
There are of course some Atlas motifs in other places in the world such as the dolmens of UK, the Celts "sky fall on head", etc but Atlantis doesn't fit/match those areas in all the major details of the Account. (They just verify the historicity of Atlantis.)
Compton in 'Exodus Lost' mentions what seemed to me examples of the Atlas motif in Mexico:
'9 Wind' lifting sky band.
4 "Atalantes"/columns/pilasters uphold/support roof temple (pyramid Quetzalcoatl, Tula).
"you uphold the mountains" (Aztec).
platform tombs supported by y-form stakes.
giant dwarfs holding aloft sky.
But just could not find a match of the major details of the Atlantis Account with Mexico. These links are instead probably from some contact/s with Atlantis (from after Atlantis "sank", &/or from connection during Atlantis).
 

* (9. 27.) Atlantis is/has high/mountains on one/sea side?
In World maps this can only really apply to Americas which has mountain ranges on west side. (We can rule out Australia & Great Didiving range.)
- South America has high/Andes on one/sea side.

* (9. 26.) Plain/city in middle of the longest/sea side of island?
(Atlantis can only be in Americas as we have so far shown.) Not many places in Americas that fits this. Can't be Central America / Caribbean because not fit other details of the Account (large island, plain, mtns, civilisation, sea, date, etc).
- Peru/Titicaca/Altiplano is in middle area of Pacific side of South America.


* Kirchir map?
If Kirchir's map is not just spurious, then his Atlantis can only be either of the two Americas. His map seems to show one of the Americas closer to Old World (one of the Americas between the other America and the Old World). Of the two Americas his Atlantis seemingly matches South America in details not North America.
South America is centred further east than North America. The Piri Reis map also shows South & Central not North America.

* ([2. 6. 7.] 18-19. [24.]) volcanic/tectonic/quakes line?
Some sources reckon Atlantis "must" be in a volcanic/quakes region because of discovery/thesis a couple of years ago that ancient sites seemingly often were/are. This is maybe only a theory and not necessarily implied by the Account (though there was/were hot springs, Poseidon [earth-saker], quake/s, etc).
One zone of the world said to be known for disasters is the "10-40 belt" or tropic of cancer latitude band. But we could not find a match for the major details of the Account.
There is a major world fault line along the west coast of Americas where the Pacific and American plates touch. The Pacific "ring of fire" is the/a major quakes/volcanoes area of the World.
The Andes where pushed up in ancient times.
There are hot springs in Peru/Andes.
There is one volcanoe (Khapia) quite near Tiahuanaco. (There might be a faint possibility that this is the volcanoe and city pictured in Catal Huyuk picture??)
The dog-bone shaped groves in blocks at Tiahuanaco where "bronze/metal cramps"/clasps were (refs Alford)?
The megalithic stones of Peru sites are oddly-shaped & fitted in such way to withstand quakes.

* (1. 2. 5. 24.) concentric land & water circles (&) royal-island capital-city?
It is true that there are many pictures and places in the world that have concentric circles. But Atlantis can't be in most of the places. Some are only pictures not sites. (Some pictues don't even match the 3 land/water circles.) No one (else) has found the concentric circles city in the ground anywhere else (with all the other details of the Account). Concentric circles cities may have been a followed design/model/plan common to more than one site. (Compare "Troy cities".) Atlantis city like Hyperborea temple was seemingly designed to mirror the spheres of heaven &/or earth. (Compare the Hollow Earth theory.)
Some of the concentric circles in places around  world do confirm the historicity of Atlantis.
We have shown that many places are ruled-out for Atlantis because not match the details of the Account (large size, direction, distance, plain, mountains, civilisation, date, etc). Thus Atlantis can't just "be/fit anywhere", like say "circular-shape" Wellington harbour in NZ as one unkind Egyptologist un-seriously countered. Some compare Atlantis and Tartessos, and there are claimed circular features and building/s traces in Donana area, but Atlantis can't be in Spain (not match Account, and Atlas mounts are on other side in Africa not Europe). Can't be Troy in Turkey. The name Clito might connect with Crete/Krit, but Atlantis doesn't match/fit Crete. Can't be Thera/Santorini (wrong size, half exploded not sunk/vanished, no plain, no mountains, no city found there, etc). Can't be San Lorenzo in Mexico, doesn't match all details. Tenochtitlan in lake/"surrounded by water" is/was abit similar to the city-island of Atlantis in the Account, but we can't fit major details of the Atlantis there or in Mexico. Can't be the anomalous object at Orinoco mouth that i found in google satellite photos because it may only be a illusion from sun/satellite, and even if not it is only about 5 km [diameter?] plus doesn't fit with other details of the Account (mountains, etc). Jim Allen's Pampa Aullagas site as it just doesn't match the city much (in buildings remains etc) either.
(Atlantis can only be in the Americas (excl/incl Lesser Antarctica) or Armorica plate.) There is only one place in the Americas (&/or World) that only/best fits the Atlantis Account details (direction, large size, plain, mountains, sea, city, civilisation, etc).
We have clear/stark match for the concentric circles (and) city in Peru/Tiahuanaco, both in the ground and in local pictures. (Though we can't totally prove all 3 circles in the ground because of our disadvantaged personal situation and inability to access to site and resources.)
- At least one or two of the 3 concentric canals/circles (and the "small hill" of the Account) are seen in Tiahuanaco/tiwanaku diagrams/maps of Posnansky (refs Posnansky, Sitchin, Alford, www.condoramericano.com.ar/historia/Tiahuanaco.htm).
-  evidence that Tiahuanaco/Akapana was connected with Titicaca (water) (refs include Daniken).
- the concentric circles (&) city is/are shown 1 or 2 or 3 x in the Coricancha altar picture. 1 on the middle/lower left (the circle & "rainbow/arch"). Possibly 1 on the middle/lower right (in the lower left of the lake)? [But it may be an illusion of the photo/s, since other photos just show few marks there not circles?] And/or possibly 1 on the middle/lower right (the dot at end of the line/canal from the lake)? [The dot is either the city or lake Poopo?]
The Coricancha picture shows half/a dozen details of the Atlantis account (plain, circles/city, etc).
See: www.labyrinthina.com/inca.altar01
http://galacticdoor2011.blog.com/files/2011/12/gold-map-in-coricancha.jpg .
- Tiwanaku is also named Taypi-kala "stone in the middle/centre", and is "considered middle of [their] world" by locals.
- the (3) concentric circles (city) seen in Pumapunku inscription (ref Jim Allen). (Pumapunku is part of Tiahuanaco.)
- concentric circles "spiral" shown in Sillustani inscription (with the wedge matching the cliff/s of the Account?) (ref wikipedia) [Compare with Chalco glyph in Mexico?]
- concentric circles seen in the Chimu/Mochica mask, with Atlas pillar rising from them (refs Pears, Larousse World mythology).
 - concentric circles seen in Calango stone from Peru (Sitchin 'Lost Realms').
- 3 concentric circles indisputibly shown in Chanchan/Chimu inscription (ref Readers Digest 'Vanished Civilisations').
- concentric circles (city) shown in Crespi collection (ref Daniken). The concentric city also maybe shown in head of the female figure in Crespi collection?
-  Posnansky has concentric circles symbols drawings from Tiahuanaco gateway (refs Sitchin, www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/reinosperdidos/reinosperdidos10.htm).
-  "radiating cross" in Peru inscription/s (ref  Sitchin 'Lost Realms').
-  3 carved channels between Ilyapa temple & rainbow temple (Cuzco)?
- 4 parts Cuzco & 4 parts Inca empire recall Atlantis cross?
- concentric circles also in the "3 windows" drawing of Salcamayhua (ref Sitchin 'Lost Realms')?
- Huinaymarka means "eternal city".
- "lost city of giants Ecuador"?
- Eldorado/Manoa / Akakor?
- Atlantis/Tiahuanaco city & lake Titicaca is (inverse) analogy of Eridu city & Persian Gulf.
- Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku called "the cradle of American man", and "Baalbek of New World" (refs Posnansky, Alford, Sitchin).
- Tiahuanaco is between two significant mountain peaks of the Andes (ref Sitchin 'Lost Realms').
- the 'route of Viracocha' goes from Tiahuanaco (start) to Quito.
[- Tiahuanaco is in the supposed "world grid", and "a ley line". Tiahuanaco is in right in/on the line in Pole shift maps.]

* (5.) the "small hill" / "dwelling of (Poseidon &/or) Clito"?
The small/low hill of the Atlantis Account surely matches the c-shaped  Akapana "hill made by hands of men" which stands-out in Tiahuanaco drawings & descriptions (refs Posnansky/Alford/Sitchin/Daniken, www.condoramericano.com.ar/historia/Tiahuanaco.htm), and which is also surely/fairly remarkible (if not unique) in all the world?
The small hill / Akapana is also shown in the Coricancha picture (the mound in the circle in the left side)?
Maybe also compare Jiskairumoko/Moko "small hill"?


* (5? 8.) temple/palace?
The temple &/or palace of the Account (& sizes [185 m x 92 m]) matches one/two of the buildings at Tiahuanaco, either:
- the Kalasasya (300 ft long / 400x450ft) /
- the throne room 160x130ft / [100x85ft] / 
- the hall 45x22ft?
- "the monolithic gateway of the temple [at Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku] is the largest example of its kind in the world";
- the Kantatayita;
(- Puma pinku/punku (167x116m, + 20m projections corners, & 5m high). But probably not this last one because it sounds like it was in different land circle not in the central island.)
Maybe also compare the Temple of sun / Coricancha "golden palace"  sheathed in gold plates / golden temple covered with gold plates of Cuzco?
Dr Kuhne says a possible 50mx40m building was found in Donana in Spain, but we have shown that Spain doesn't match Atlantis in the major details of the account.

* (2. 5. 24.) central island 5 stades/half a mile?
- central island Tiahuanaco "2x1 miles" (refs Alford). Tiahuanaco city "6.5 sq kms maximum".
- sources say is evidence that Akapana/Tiahuanaco was connected with Titicaca.
- Posnansky's diagrams show rings/canals right upto the central island/small hill/temple/palace as the account says.
The central island can't be anywhere like say Sommes island of Wellington harbour in NZ (as a unkind Egyptologist "smartly" though unseriously countered to me), because not match all the major details of the Account (large island, plain, mountains, distance, direction, city, civilisation, date, sizes, elephants, etc).

* (5.) "9.2 km" distance from city to sea?
- the distance in the Atlantis account varies between sources (eg 50 stades / 9.2 km, or "5 miles").
- the distance between Tiahuanaco & Titicaca varies between sources (eg one says Tiahuanaco 10 miles from Titicaca, another says "Tiahuanaco 12 m sth of Titicaca"? Another says a few / 13 miles from Titicaca.  Tiahuanaco city "6.5 sq kms maximum". Tiwanaku "sits in a 3 miles width trough".) [A quarry 10km away. Kimsa Chata/quimsa-chata is 15 km or 10-12 miles southeast of/from [Tiahuanaco or Titicaca]?
Tiahuanaco described as "vast area" / "several square miles in area", and/or greater Tiahuanaco including Pumapunku etc stretches "for miles".
- the distance between Tiahuanaco and Titicaca was different then than now.
Sources say is evidence/s that Tiahuanaco/Akapana was connected with Titicaca.
- some of the figures/distances of Atlantis and Tiahuanaco are (roughly) the exact same distance.

* (34.) name Atlantis/Atlantic/Atlas [&/or Poseidonis]?
The Atlantis Account says the names were Greek translations of Egyptian translations of Atlantean originals. So there may not be any match of the name Atlantis/Atlantic/Atlas with the true site.
We will just mention though that there are also possible matches for the name in South America/Tiahuanaco area, eg: Tahuantinsuyo / Antisuyo/Antisuco / antis/Andes; isla Allan (in the Urus/Uros area); Atau (king/god)?; ["Alpha"?]
(I can't remember from memory whether Atlatona is Peruvian or Mexican?)
The Atlas pillar motif seen in Peruvian masks/etc (eg Chavin/Mochica mask [which also has the concentric circles) says to me "Atlas/Atlantis" in pictures. (And the Andes qualify as Atlas and near heaven.)
Atlas mountains in Africa analogously parallel Andes in South America.
South America is in the Atlantic.
Atlantis in Kirchir's map matches South America.
[Some correspond Atl "water" of Mexico, but aside from the aforementioned translation/s point it is possible that A-tl/A-tonatiuh is connected with E-a not Atlas/Atlantis? Atlantis doesn't fit Mexico area in various details anyway.]

* (8.) had own Atlantean script?
The account says that the Atlanteans had their own script.
We could maybe assume that this may be an undeciphered script, but it is also possible that scholar just haven't recognised correspondences of the cultures/names (just like they don't know the reverse-translations/match of Atlantis names/culture at the other end). 
There was a "Tartessian" script (undeciphered) in Spain, but Atlantis doesn't fit Spain.
Script matches for Peru (which also has matches the other major details of the Account):
- script in Crespi collection (Daniken)?
- pictographs with phonetic/alphabetic script on the Colango stone (Sitchin)?
- skin parchment with hieroglyphic writing, & such writing confirmed known at Copacabana.  (Refs: von Tschudi / Sitchin).
-  Fuente magna "proto-Sumerian" writing (J Allen).
- Peru had writing before quipus? (They wrote on banana leaves from reign of 3rd sovereign before flood until 63rd Inca who burned and forbade all writing.)
- Book of wars/book of leaves among Pano Indians.  - Amazon inscriptions (Honore/Kolosimo).
- "astronomical scientific script gylphs" Tiahuanaco gateway (Bellamy)?
-  Petroglyphs of Uru-name Andean gold centres, similar to Sumerian (Sitchin)?
- Bailey's 'God Kings & Titans' book has American scripts tables?




* (15.) bulls (sacrifice/religion)?
* (15.) (bull) sacrifice?
Crete had bull cult, but Atlantis can't be Crete.
North America had buffalos, but Atlantis is not there.
Spain has bull fighting, but Atlantis doesn't fit Spain.
Some people said Peru doesn't have bulls so can't match. However, Peru has does have stark matches for bulls (or "bulls") then, and with a number of the various details of the bull sacrifice of the Atlantis Account. (I mean in the same way: bulls, clubs, slit throat, dismember, drink blood from gold cups.)
- little ceramic stone bulls on house rooftops everywhere in lake Titicaca (Peru, tourist girls travel photos & captions).
- bull god at Chavin (Sitchin 'lost realms')?
- communities worship bull at Pucara/near Puno on Titicaca?
- "bull(s) of Pucara"?
- standing on a bull in a stone carving sw of Titicaca?
- Raimondi monolith deity's face of a bull (Sitchin 'Lost Realms')?
- El Lanzon anthropomorphised bull face (Sitchin 'Lost Realms')?
- "Alpha"?
- seated [bull-like] "deer" figure carrying a club (Peru, Larouse world mythology).
- horned animal sacrificing a human (Sipan pottery, Reader's Digest 'Vanished civilisations').
- "pottery cow" / cow shaped vase / cow sacrificed & entrails put in vase (fertilit ceremonies, Peru, Larousse world mythology),
- llama sacrifice (Allen 'Atlantis in Bolivia'). (In this case it is "bulls" not bulls.)
-  "Urus ancestors sacrificed by invaders"? [Compare word urus "ox/bull"?]
- "captives throat cut, blood caught in goblet, offered goblet to ruler who drank the blood" (Sipan).
-  sacrifical victims dismembered and strings tied around limbs so they could be hung up as trophies Sipan.
- golden bowls/goblets Chimu.

* (8?) civilisation/high culture?
Any candidate site for Atlantis must have a certain amount of  evidence of civilisation there.
The main civilisations of the ancient world were in the tropic of Cancer latitude band, plus Peruvian in tropic of Capricorn latitude band.
The only major known civilisations of ancient Americas are Peruvian, Mexican, Mound-builders/Appallachian.
There are a few finds or claims of possible finds in the Caribbean/Bahamas/Bermuda area (wall/road, building/s, pyramid/s, site/city off Cuba coast, anomaly), but there is not any/much major civilisation evidences thereabouts.
No indications on Piri Reis map for civilisation in Antartctica/etc?
 In the Americas there is only one place that fits the (plain and mountains and sea and) civilisation of the Atlantis Account: Peru.
Peruvian is the oldest civilisation/agriculture of the Americas and one of the few oldest ones of the World (refs Readers Digest 'Vanished Civs', etc). Tiahuanaco is called the "cradle of American man" & "Baalbek of the New World" (refs Posnansky, Alford, Sitchin, Kolosimo).
* Atlantean culture found in other parts of world other than just Peru?
At present we are looking at the Heliolithic/megalithic &/or/to Early/Middle Bronze Age culture/s as the main possible match for Atlanteans culture.

* (29.) 2 crops a year?
The Atlantis account says Atlantis got 2 crops a year due to good climate and the fertile plain and channels.
Hyperborea also had 2 crops, but if that is the likes of Britain then it doesn't match Atlantis.
HG Wells mentioned that in Mesopotamia wheat yielded 200-fold (Herodotus) and was cut twice (Pliny), but Atlantis doesn't fit Iraq.
We could possibly compare the highly fertile (floating gardens/canals) valley of Mexico, but Mexico just doesn't fit the major details of the Atlantis acount.
Peru has/had match for 2 crops a year:
 - the ancient suka_kollus "(flooded-)raised field(s)" summer & winter farming/agriculture system of Tiwanaku / Altiplano / Peru/Bolivia "produced impressive yields" (refs Wikipedia, Jim Allen).
- also shown in the Coricancha picture ("sun/stars & moon/clouds = summer & winter", refs Sitchin 'Lost Realms', etc).
-  Sun & moon in picture of waruwaru agricultre.
- the Altiplano has geoglyphs matching the channels of the large plain in the Atlantis Account.
- the climate was different before the Andes was  suddenly pushed up higher in ancient times.
- Arica "eternal spring"?


* (8. 13. 21.) boats?
Possible boats/sails/seafaring/ports/shipwrecks evidences for Peru &/or South America:
- 10 ships Paraiba inscription (refs Kolosimo)?
- Chimu/Mochica "myth" says Naymlap arrived with a "fleet" of "balsas" (refs Pears),
- Chimu (Chan chan) pottery figure of "reed boat" titled "life on the ocean wave" (ref Readers Digest 'Vanished Civs')?
- Peruvians had "sea-worthy rafts" (ref Readers Digest 'Vanished Civs').
- "sea ports in the Andes" (refs Velikovsky/etc).
-  Dragon-boat racing Puno?
- the raft of Taycanamo myth?
- evidences that Phoenicians visited (South) America.
- the totora/reed boats of Titicaca are similar shape to Fasold's Noah's Ark. The design/shape if not material surely implies that they probably may have had ancient seafaring boats/ships.
- the statue of man on horse in Azores pointing west and connected with name/word cati/cates ("this way" in Quechua).
- coc(h)a "sea" names?
- the "candelabra" at Paracas seems to be a marker for sea-farers?
- Tiahuanaco/Peru had "extensive trade routes".
- Thor Heyerdahl.
-  "Maps of the ancient sea kings" (Piri Reis map, Charles Hapgood).
- alledged lack of evidence ("arguing negatives") is not dis/proof.
- if there was a continental shift, then the Atlantic may have been upto half the current width/distance/duration then?
Evidences for seafaring/boats in neighbouring areas:
- Polynesians (& fleet of 10 canoes).
- the "archaic maritime" culture of North America,
- the ancient canal of Tehuantepec?
- ancient Americas traditons mostly say they came from east over sea (not from west / over land-bridge/ice).
Evidences for sefaring/boats/ships in wider/whole ancient world:
- Berlitz gives pictures of "prehistoric and early representations of sacred ships or 'sun boats,' found in widely separated areas such as Egypt, Sumeria, California, Spain, and Sweden."
Spanuth also gives some boats pictures.
- "the seas were highways not barriers".
-  "Sea power came before land power".
- the Britons/Celts had a fleet of high sea ships according to Roman source.
- Vikings.
- "First seafarers" (Australia).
- the find in Crete a year or two ago now.
- Sea Peoples & boats of Medinet Habu inscriptions?
- There are some boats in stone age Atlantic Europe inscriptions if i remember correctly.
- Stone age cultures appeared on the Atlantic coast of Europe [as if from the Atlantic].
- Bohuslan inscriptions?
- Indus inscription of 2 feet/steps and a boat (ref Hrozny)?
- Bacon's quote that ancient seafaring was greater than contemporary.
- the Popul Vuh says the first race explored the 4 quarters of the earth.
- the Heliolithic culture found around the world (including Peru) may suggest boats/seafaring?

« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 12:29:54 pm by senator Bam » Report Spam   Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2015, 04:33:48 am »

Not really certain you can ever convince anyone here where Atlantis was. Why? Mostly because everyone seems to have their own set ideas what Atlantis was and where it existed. If it does not exactly fit their pre-configured criteria, you are out of luck! Some set it in the Bronze  Age, some in the Neolithic Period. Some believe they made war with flints and arrows (Plato as Prehistorian) while others believe they had crystals and death rays. Never mind all the people who believe the Indian writings pertain to Atlantis or that it was in the Mediterranean. So, I wish you luck in trying to appease all those many viewpoints. Many have tried while few have succeeded. At least we are still not talking about Thera, in my view that is the worst theory.
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2015, 05:34:33 pm »

Quote
The spring at Athens was found just like the Account says.

Do you have a link to this? I would like to read more about it.
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2015, 04:37:02 am »

Quote
The spring at Athens was found just like the Account says.

Do you have a link to this? I would like to read more about it.

My main/original source for that was Jurgen Spanuth 'Atlantis of the North' book (and Bolton's 'Germanic Atlantis' booklet from 'spectrum press'/'renaissance press' which quotes/mentions/discusses that from Spanuth's book too). (Have seen 1 or more other sources but not remember/recorded them.) (I can dig out the book and try give more details for you if need, but i am abit worn out after spending half the last day and half this night improving and adding more to the narrowing down piece.)
Thanks.
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2015, 04:58:50 am »

Not really certain you can ever convince anyone here where Atlantis was. Why? Mostly because everyone seems to have their own set ideas what Atlantis was and where it existed. If it does not exactly fit their pre-configured criteria, you are out of luck! Some set it in the Bronze  Age, some in the Neolithic Period. Some believe they made war with flints and arrows (Plato as Prehistorian) while others believe they had crystals and death rays. Never mind all the people who believe the Indian writings pertain to Atlantis or that it was in the Mediterranean. So, I wish you luck in trying to appease all those many viewpoints. Many have tried while few have succeeded. At least we are still not talking about Thera, in my view that is the worst theory.

It does seem that some people seem to have their own pet ideas/sites (&/or we all want to be the one to find the city ourselves), which seem to be a barrier to people seeing/considering. (It is similar with the 9 battle sites of "(King) Arthur".) Though people have also implied/thought that i have (though i have tried to openly/objectively consider all possible locations around the world, etc (from my first study in '99 to the present)). There must be some positive thing/s though that counter it like say the excitement and/or evidence of the real & amazing site being found.
Even if the thesis/discovery is right, any credit goes to Jim Allen and David Fasold for the Atlantis in Peru/at Tiahuanaco part, and to Posnansky and Sitchin and Alford for the Tiahuanaco/Peru  part.
The "flint and arrows" may be a not entirely/necessarily true criticism of whoever's place/time theory though if i recall correctly. 
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2015, 05:05:11 am »

Here are some more added Atlantis-details narrowing-down sections. Still a few we haven't added yet (hot springs, etc) (though they were/are in my previous rough paper still on my blog).
(Note we have also updated/improved/added-to the first post ones.)

Note the numbers are from the Milos/Melos convention 24 points plus Jim Allen's added 10 points (making 34).

updated tue 10 feb 5pm.

* cliff/s?
We searched for Atlantis in various areas that are more/most well-known for cliffs (Germany coasts, Albion, Faeroes, Grand Canyon) but Atlantis not found there and they don't fit all the details of the Account (direction, large size, elephants, city, plain, etc).
In my atlas/maps, in all the world the only main seeming places for steep areas around the outside/coasts of the continents is the underwater true continental edges of the Americas. But we searched all around the Americas eastern coasts in satellite photos etc and Atlantis can not be found there and doesn't fit all the details of the Account.
There are some areas with cliffs around Titicaca. However, we searched those areas and all around lake Titicaca and Atlantis city just doesn't fit any of the places except for Tiahuanaco.
We are not totally sure of the exact/correct match for the cliff/s of Atlantis city at Tiahuanaco, but (there is not doubt that it is the right site, and) the cliff/s may match either: the "crest" &/or plateau Kimsa Chata &/or Puna on the right/east side (blog.world-mysteries.com/science/ancient-ruins-of-tiwanacu-and-pumapunku/), and/or the similar ridge/flanks/peak/height Quimsa-Chata &/or Serrania Machaca on the left/west side.
The cliff/s seem to be shown in local pictures showing the concentric city of Atlantis/Tiahuanaco. May be the wedge  beside the concentric circles city in the Sillustani inscription? The cliff/s seems to be shown in the Coricancha picture ("Ilyapa"/"Rayo").

* (20.) (invasion, &) war with Athens?
We can't yet totally prove the Atlantis/Athens war at/from the Peru/South America end/side in our Atlantis/Tiahuanaco scenario/thesis. We can only give some the few possible evidences so-far for the war from areas between Peru and Greece/Egypt.
The Account and our notes here show that Atlantis was outside the Pillars / in the Atlantic, not inside the Pillars / the Mediterranean
Peru: giants deprived of light vs sons of light?
UK: giant Albion (son of Neptune) vs Hercules?
UK: Latinus/Chittim army vs Britannia inhabitants?
Spain/Hoeh: Antaeus vs Hercules?
Plato: (decadent) Atlantis vs Athens/Eurasia.
Greek: Poseidon vs Athena/[Cecrops]?
Classical/Josephus: Saturn/Cronus/Crete vs Zeus?
Homer/Zangger: Trojans vs Mycenae?
Herodotus: Asia vs Europe?
Dio Sic: Atlantioi vs Amazons?
Egypt: Sea Peoples vs Egypt?
Bible ('Exodus') : enemies vs Egypt?
Mahabharata: 10 kings vs Su-dasa?
lost source: "sorcery vs good law"?
Compare modern USA versus Europe?
Assyrian depictions of Toakkari Sea Peoples bearing South America fan palm?
[Note that "Hercules/Athens/fairest race" may be for Indo-European not just Athens?]

* (7. 24.) Red, white & black?
The Atlantis account mentions "red, white and black" cliffs/stones/buildings.
From various sources it seems that "red, white & black" is not just geological but also castes/races/ages:
red, white, black (Plato/Hitler).
gold, silver, bronze/copper (Olympics/Peru).
Shem, Japheth, Ham (Judaeo-Christian).
Thracian/red, German/white, Ethiopian/red (Hoeh).
zeus/jupiter/ammon , poseidon/neptune/atlantis , hades/pluto?
Examples for red white & black stones/rocks from Atlantipedia are:
"Canarians decorated their temple with red, white and black rock, the colours of tufa, pumice and lava". "The cliffs of Santorini are also known to display red, white and black rock." "red, white and black bricks were used extensively in «atal HŁyŁk."
"pre-Roman structures near Gibraltar that incorporate red, white and black blocks in their construction." However none of these places matches with all the major details of the account (in Atlantic, beyond pillars, large size, sank, date, mountains, plain, etc.
One source said Iceland has black lava. But Atlantis doesn't match Iceland in all the major details.
Peru/Bolivia has match/es for "red, white & black":
-  red white black stones wall/building Llachon?
- red permian rocks at Tiwanaku?
- 3 bands (gold, silver, copper) in mountains by Titicaca?
- "triple striped red yellow green" [Titicaca]?
- red white & blue steps at church of Paucarcolla?,
-  red, white & black traditional dress code Taquile?
- 3 eggs of gold, silver & copper of Peru myth.
-  Kunturwasi red, black, yellow, pink, malachite green (ref Wikipedia)?
- red, white, black stones at Pampa Aulagas (Jim Allen)?
- "the first people were divided into tribes according to their colour" (Kadevo, Brazil)?
- "3 parts Coricancha picture [heaven, air, world/underworld]"?
- top, middle, bottom rows of Tiahuanaco gateway?
- the Bolivian flag (Jim Allen)?
- Paucar "multicoloured"?
And elsewhere in South America:
- "Pottery recovered from Las Ńnimas complex [Norte Chico, north Chile] has linear designs painted with white, red or black."
- tierra Dentro red, white, black (Colombia)?

* (8. 13.) large population?
Atlantis account says/implies Atlantis had a large population & army.
Today the world's largest population centres are usa, europe, india, (indonesia), china.
In modern geopolitics the  northern hemisphere and eastern hemisphere or northeast quadrant has the most population. Asia/China has much/alot.
We have shown that Atlantis can't be many places in the world.
The New World is the largest landmass after the Old World.
 Large population fits Peru/South America (then) (as do many other major details of the Account).
- South America is a continent.
- "There are also many evidences of large populations in South America, for thousands of years".
- geoglyphs of Altiplano in satellite pictures evidence there was once large population there.
Tiwanaku area of Altiplano "15000-30000 inhabitants, dramatically raised by satellite imaging to capacity 285000-1,482,000 people"!
Churchward said Mu had a large population, but he/that may be spurious, and/or it is not definite where Mu was/is, and/or it is close to world population (&/or "holocauast"?), and/or Mu may or may not match Atlantis, and/or it could match America.

* blue robes?
Atlantean kings/priests of Poseidon had blue robes. (Blue can be for sea or sky?)
Odin had blue robe, but there is no match for all the details of the Atlantis Account with Scandinavia/Germany area.
Superman has blue costume, but obviously no Atlantis match (not being smart but listing all considered/possible candidates/similarities).
Blue robes can fit Peru/America (as do many other Atlantis details):
- Araucanian blue-robed in Huxley's book?
- gold & blue (robe) Sipan?
-  blue & yellow/[gold] feathers headress Chimu/ChanChan (ref Readers Digest 'Vanished Civilisations')?
-  blue-violet cape Mama Ocllo? (green tunic Manco Capac?)
(- green stone-carving of king Naymlap? Legend of Nyamlap / green idol, Ecuador?)
-  quipus made akin to tzit-zit "fringes on the corner of a blue thread"?

* (# 33.) twins/2(x5) kings, 5(x2) kings, 10 kings?
Atlantis account has 10 kings (5 x 2 sons of Poseidon).
Some correspond 10 kings of Atlantis with 12 kings Scheria/Phaeacia. (There does seem to be a 10/12 interchange in ancient times.) [Maybe compare "13 Greeks descended from Hercules" (Plutarch)?]
      Matches with Peru/(South) America for 10 [or 12] kings:
-  9th inca rebuilt temple sun?
- 9/10 [icons/sephiroth] Coricancha altar picture?
- 9 kings from numbers 4 to 15 in Peruvian kinglist?
- 9 niches temple Macchu Picchu?
- 10 kings Taycanamo dynasty,
- 10 ships Paraiba inscription (Kolosimo)?
- 10 communities on Amantani,
- 10 kings Naymlap to Fempellec / "10th king after Naymlap"?
- 10 walled citadels/enclosures/structures/districts Chan Chan (Marcahuamachuco).
- 10 months x/of 29 days calendar (Peru)?
- 10 headed snake Amazon (ref Kolosimo),
- terrace of 10 niches Ollantaytambo/[Tiahuanaco?],
- Viracocha adopted 5 pairs of twin sons,
- "larger islands of the Uros house about 5-6 or10 families",
- about 10 on the crown of Tata_Pancho?
- 11 icons/pillars/months Tiahuanaco?
- Akakor map has 11 sites/peoples?
- pottery paintings upto 11 colours?
- "11 gates &/or el Rocque/12th gate"?
- 12 with Viracocha on gate?)
- 12 braids of hair Tiahuanaco?
- 12 wards Cuzco*
- 12 gods/pillars (legend of Nyamlap/green idol, Ecuador)?
- pedrade 12 angulos/12 angled stone Cuzco?
- "12 heads of the meander" Tiahuanaco (Bellamy)?
- 13/26 cities Akakor map (though supposed to be a fake)?
There are of course matches for 10 kings in some other places (eg 10 curiae Rome, dynasty of 10 god-kings Egypt, 10 patriarchs bible, 10 kings Adites, 10 emperors Chinese myth, 10 horns beast in bible), but none of these places fit all the major details of the Atlantis Account. A couple of them are too small for 10 kings regions.  NZ Maori had a fleet of 10 Canoes, but Polynesians link with our South America. Churchward's 10 parts/regions of Mu may link with our Atlantis.
      Matches of 5 with Peru/(South) America
- 5 samptni deities of the Urus?
-  5 figures flanking either (right & left) side  of central figure on Tiahuanaco 'Gateway of the Sun',
- 5 types ceramics North Peru?
- 5 major harbours Taquile?
- 5-toed foot on Calango stone?
- 5 fountains?
- 5 head feathers?
Someother places had 5s (eg 5 cities Philistines, 5 cities of Siddim, battle of 5 forts NZ Maori myth, 5 stones Stonehenge) but the places don't match with the major details of the Account. (The Stonehenge and Maori ones may connect with our Atlantis/America.)
      Matches of twins/2s with Peru/America:
-  King and nobles of Chanchan (Chimu) "descended from 2 stars".
-  chucuito ruled by 2 equipotent chiefs,
-  little ceramic stone bulls on rooftops always in pairs?
- federation of villages each divided into 2 moities,
- 2 groups hananzaia & hurinzaia, or  arasaya & masaya at Tiwanaku and in dancers festival.
- flanking pair/twins in female figure of Crespi collection?
- 2 creatures in the concentric circles in the El Dragon picture (Chanchan, ref 'Vanished Civilisations')?
- Tupi & Guarani? Witoto & Zaparo? Quechua & Aymara? Yahgan & Ona?
2 cities Huari/Wari & Tiwanaku/Tiahuanaco?
 Quat & Iae?
- "Bachue always bore quadruplets or sextuplets"?
There are matches for twins/pairs/2 kings in other places (eg Sparta 2 kings, Anglo-Saxons 2 co-kings, Rome 2 consuls, 5x2 Stonehenge), but those places don't match the other details of the Account.

*  Cisterns?
Tiahuanaco is pointed out in a number of sources as having water cisterns/drains/pipes, and/or "elaborate drainage systems & conduits"! (Ref/s Daniken/etc.)
[Tambomachay aqueducts?]

* (13.) horses/chariots?
Matches for ancient Peru/(South America):
- statue of man on horse pointing west with word cates/cati ("this way" in Quechua) in Azores?
- "skeleton of ancient horse found in peru".
- Horses & camelids Pikimachay?
- Uros boats called "Totora horses"?
- horse shoe shape temple Pukara?
- horse sacrificed, its entrails placed in vase?
vase made in shape of horse (fertility ceremonies, Peru, Larouse world mythology?)
- hippocampus / little seahorse?
- "Prehistoric" America/s had horses (though it may be North America? [Note that the evolutionary dating is wrong, not right. Though it would also/alterantively fit with "9000" years anyway.])


* (12.) many different kinds/species of animals/fauna?
The Account says Atlantis had "... every kind of animal domesticated and wild, among them elephants. For there was plenty of grazing for this lagest and most voracious of beasts, as well as for all creatures whose habitat is marsh, swamp and river, mountain or plain."
This surely must best fit/match a continent sized land-mass like North/South America or Americas/New World.
"Prehistoric"/ancient North &/or South America/s had all the sorts of animals implied in Atlantis account including elephants, mastodons, toxodons, horses, giant sloths, sabre toothtigers, llamas, alpaca, camels, new world monkeys, buffalo, pigs, [dinosaurs,] puma, coyote, rheas/ratites, etc
And for Peru: One or more sources say "under Titicaca animal varieties not found anywhere else in world".
"Madidi national park richest biodiversity in world"?
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 08:20:23 pm by senator Bam » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2015, 06:32:09 pm »

After this new springs one I can't do anymore sorry, i have to stop spending any/so much time on the computer because it seems to make the Hell clicking in my throat everytime i swallow unbearably worse (aside from the only having dialup, only access to free sources, and that spending too much time on computer messes up my timetable re other things i need/want to do).

Please note the additions to these sections of the updated last 3 Atlantis-details narrowing-down posts:
concentric circles city (esp the name meaning "stone in the centre"!),
'red white & black',
2 crops a year,
10 kings,
cliffs,
hot springs.


Before the springs one, just first a few additions i haven't inserted into the previous two parts/posts:
Angkor Wat maybe has similar size and surrounding water canals network , but that area doesn't fit major details of the Account.
Pueblo Bonito has cliffs & semi-concentric circles city, but Atlantis doesn't otherwise match there. (It just indicates some sort of connection between the peoples/cultures.)
Tenochtitlan in lake/"surrounded by water" is/was abit similar to the city-island of Atlantis in the Account, but we can't fit major details of the Atlantis there or in Mexico.

Now the another additional Atlantis-details narrowing-down section:


* (6. 24.) (hot (& cold)) spring(s)?
Atlantis royal-island capital-city had 2 springs, 1 hot and 1 cold, and they loved a hot bath.
Hot springs are a feature of fault lines of the world.
Wikipedia has list/s of major hot &/or cold springs of the world. (Some of the places other than our South America inlcude: disko isl Greenland, champagne/boiling lake dominica, elPandeno Mexico, rincondelavieja costarica, Deception isl Antarctica.)
However, many places are ruled out by the (combination of) major details of the Account (large size, direction, great plain, mountains, etc).
The Persian Gulf has/had spring/s, but Atlantis can not be there (not fit size, direction, etc).
Athens only had one not two springs in the same Atlantis Account.
UK has geothermal at Southampton (matching the baths of Badon of the 'Wonders of Britain'), but Atlantis isn't & can't be there.
Mid-atlantic has/had some hot springs but Atlantis can't be found there and/or it doesn't match with some major details of the Account like large size, etc.
USA has alot of springs places/names in maps, but  Atlantis doesn't fit there (re combination of plain, mountains, etc).
South America, & Peru have hot springs.
Peru is renowned for hot springs. Examples of hot/cold springs/fountains in Peru/Bolivia include: Putina hot springs; hotsprings chivay / chivay thermal baths; hotsprings of Ayacucho, Cajamarca, colca lodge, near macchu picchu/aguas calientes, Atacama; Tambomachay aqueducts/bath/spa? Medicinal underground waters Arica?  [Arica "eternal spring"?] medicinal/curative fountain of youth Carhuaz? baths/water fountains Pisac? 'Fountain of the incas' / sacred fountain Posada del Inca/Island of the Sun?
Tiahuanaco itself had "several springs some of
which show vestiges of having been enclosed
and provided with conduits of cut stone in ancient times".
Other places in nearby areas &/or elsewhere in our South America with hot/cold springs include: Tulcan ecuador &/or salinas ecuador, "275 in chile" (including largest Liquine, 7 lakes, atacama, puyehue lake), Rio Hondo & cacheuta Argentina;


ps I think we have answered Atlantipedia's criticism of us/our thesis as being "very flawed"/"major error"/"no evidence"/"not explain"/"daft"/"untenable"/"laughable", and others implications of "(geologically) impossible"/"pseudo". And hopefully this new version is not so "tough going".
 
Sean.

edit post: sorry/darn, i can't quit until i have done this one extra thing:

I've just found out that i have to redo all the 24 Milos conference checklist + Allen's added 10 points (total 34 points) ref numbers that we added to the start of our sections headers here, because Jim Allen added a further 16 pts and he also re-ordered/re-numbered the earlier 34 pts! Or else i will have to just (detect/pick-out and then) asign my own numbers to the extra 16 points (and then post a list of the extra 16 numbers to show my numbers).

34 (24+10) pts & original numbering:
http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/atlantistheories.htm

50 pts (34 + 16, & renumbered):
http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/beyond24points.htm
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 09:51:46 pm by senator Bam » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2015, 10:57:39 pm »

Alright we found a solution:

In the contents list (below) of all the Atlantis-details narrowing-down sections that are in the 3 posts on the narrowing-down above:

The numbers are the original Milos conference 24 points & Allen's extra 10 points (total 34 points) and order/numbering.

The numerals are the Milos 24 pts & Allen's extra 10+16 pts (total 50 pts) and order/numbering.

(We haven't put the numerals in the 3 posts Atlantis-details sections headers yet.)

contents of the 3 narrowing-down posts above:

 -- the 1st post/part's sections: --
real or fiction?
west or east?
south or north? (10, xlix)
continent or island? (1/4/24/25, i/iii)
atlantic or indian/pacific? (3, iii)
america or europe/asia/africa/antartica?
"sank" or sank? (1/17-19/22/24, i/xxxix-xli/xlv-xlvii)
muddy sea: where? (1/22, i/xliii)
elephants america or asia/africa? (12, xxxv)
900 yrs or 9000 yrs? (23, xliv)
pillars: gibraltar or messena/dardanelles? (3, ii)
atlantic/ocean or mediterranean/sea? (3, iii)
far or near? (3/14/20-21, xlii)
king one of oldest atlanteans: where?
(near) the sea: where? (9)
large plain: where? (9/11/26-29, xvii/xviii/xix/xxii-xxv/xxx)
orichalc: where? (6/8/31/32, viii-xi/xiii/xiv/xvi)
high/mountains: where? (9/27, xix-xxi/xxx)
atlas motif: where? (9/27)
mountains on sea side: where? (9/27, xx)
plain in middle of long/sea side: where? (9/26, xvii/xxv)
kirchir map: where?
volcanic/quakes: where? (2/6/7/18/19/24)
concentric circles city: where? (1/2/5/24, i/v/xlv)
small/low hill: where? (5, iv)
temple/palace: where? (5/8, xiii/xvi)
half a mile central island/city: where? (2/5/24, xxvi)
9 km city to sea: where? (5, iv)
name atlantis: where? (34, L)
own script: where? (8, xvi)
bulls/sacrifice: where? (15, xxxviii)
civilisation/culture: where? ( 8 )
2 crops a year: where? (29, xxxii)
boats: where? (8/13/21, xvi/xxxiii/xxxvi/xlii)
 -- the 2nd post/part's sections: --
cliff/s: where? (xx)
war with athens: where? (20)
red, white & black: where? (7/24, xv/xlviii)
large population/army: where? (8/13, xxxvi)
blue robes: where?
5x2 sons/10 kings: where? (33, xxxi)
cisterns: where? (vii)
horses/chariots: where? (13, xxxvi)
many species of animals: where? (12, xxxiv)
 -- the 3rd/last post/part section: --
hot springs: where? (6/24, vi/vii/xlviii)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 12:36:07 pm by senator Bam » Report Spam   Logged
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